Immigrant Grit & Athletic Discipline: Building a Biotech Legacy | Bogdan Knezevic (Part 1/4)

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Intro - 00:00:55: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup, from pre-seed to IPO, with your host, Jon Chee. 

Jon - 00:01:18: My guest today is Bogdan Knezevic, co-founder and CEO at Kaleidoscope, the R&D operations platform for data-driven decisions and work planning. Kaleidoscope was built to give R&D a platform for easily understanding their data, tracking projects and decisions, and communicating key progress. By leveraging decades of experience spanning bio, engineering, and design, Kaleidoscope created a powerful framework that brings the best of modern product principles into the hands of innovators who need them the most. Bogdan holds a PhD, in genomics and drug discovery from the university of Oxford and was selected as a Rhodes Scholar. Prior to his PhD experience, he attended the university of Calgary, where he graduated with a bachelor's in Neuroscience and first authored multiple publications focusing on genetic and epigenetic factors and disease mechanisms. In addition to academia, Bogdan was also an internationally ranked competitive swimmer for many years. With deep expertise in Neuroscience, Big Data, genomics, and R&D infrastructure, Bogdan brings a multidisciplinary perspective that listeners won't want to miss. Over the next four episodes, Bogdan shares how his experiences with wet lab research, data analytics, and software shaped his approach to building tools for R&D. Throughout the series, he reflects on the challenges of scaling biotech infrastructure, the risks of operational inefficiencies, and what it really takes to support scientists. He also discusses co-founding Kaleidoscope and finding ways to drive lasting impact in the industry. Today, we're diving into Bogdan's upbringing in Serbia and Canada and the formative experiences that shaped his mindset as a founder. He shares what it was like to immigrate during the Yugoslav Wars, how his parents rebuilt their lives from scratch, and why their resilience continues to influence his sense of responsibility and grit. We'll also explore how swimming at an elite level taught him discipline, how his early interest in science took shape in Canada's public school system, and why his family sacrifices instilled a lifelong drive to make his work meaningful. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. Bogdan, it's good to see you. Thanks for coming on the podcast.  

Bogdan - 00:03:06: Thanks for having me, Jon. 

Jon - 00:03:07: So I've really been really looking forward to this. I know we've been having extensive conversations kind of since we actually put this on the calendar, but I'm glad we officially get to hit record right now. And, you know, in traditional opening fashion of The Biotech Startups Podcast, we always like to turn back the hands of time to really learn about what your upbringing was like and how it influenced your business philosophy, leadership style, and really just learn like how you got involved in science and business. So take us back. What was it like growing up? 

Bogdan - 00:03:38: Yeah, it's a pretty rare treat now to be able to talk about those days, especially like a podcast format. So I like the kind of long form nature here that lets us do that. Yeah, so I was actually born in Serbia in the early 90s. This is right around when the kind of civil it was called Yugoslavia back then. So the Yugoslav Wars was just starting, which I think really did kick off a series of dominoes falling that led to where I am today. So I don't have a lot of like personal memories. I've been back many times since, but of, you know, the first few years there. But the thing that really stuck with me and had like a pretty profound impact, I think, was just, which is going to sound like very typical or cliche to any immigrants. But it is that kind of immigrant story of a family. My parents both being like very well educated and having like social circles that, you know, they had comfort with at home. And deciding to kind of rip all that out and move and not just move. But I think like move at a time, first of all, when there wasn't like digital communication. A move to a country where my mom spoke some of the language. My dad spoke little to none. You know, leaving behind all their social circles. And also move. I'd have to give up their profession. So they were both psychologists by training, which unfortunately meant that, you know, the way that the kind of system works in Canada for that profession is like not something that you could just start doing if you were educated somewhere else. There's like a whole process by which to do that, which is also very limiting when you don't have the language skills. So there was a lot there for them to have to just uproot and do and do with very little like resources personally. And even like after we moved within a year, we had Bogdaned to my grandparents and my uncle to move as well. So we were living in Canada, six of us on basically two new immigrant salaries. And at the time, like my mom was working on her like PhD thesis. So she wanted to continue research. So she was figuring that out and working for one of our telecom companies and like customer service, like answering customer service calls. My dad was just working on anything he could as he was learning English. So that meant like bakeries and hotels and like literally anything that he could find an ad for. And so to me, like just everything that had to do with that and like the courage to do that and the perseverance to just be okay with that, to have like low ego and not think like, oh, I'm above this. Like, I'm never going to do this because I'm so well educated. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, you have to do what you have to do to get to where you want to be and work under the constraints you have. And that means, you know, swallowing your ego and just realizing like that's just the reality of it. And you have to grind away if you're going to hit that success. So I think like that to me is definitely a big portion of my upbringing that stuck with me and just seeing that you have to put in a tremendous amount of work and then getting having like snapshots of of my life since then. And I won't jump too far into the future because I know we'll eventually get there. But, but just seeing that we went from that being our reality to my parents now being able to retire and having paid off like their house and having like a couple of other properties that they own. And it's just like such a crazy different stark contrast to where we were then. So like just the kind of evidence that like it's possible and you can like 10x or 100x your situation if you like apply yourself and like be resilient to the ups and downs. And that just makes me excited because I think that instilled a lot in me. But also now I feel responsible like, okay, I have to I have to just do that much better because I've just been like, yes, as a kid growing up, I also had very limited resources. But by the time I was an adult, we had already established ourselves. So like me at this, I'm 33. Me at this age compared to like my parents at 33 is like night and day. And so I feel like a duty or like respond- Like moral obligation to like make sure I'm putting great things out there, like putting my energy towards things that matter. Because like why else? Like I'm basically all of the reason why they chose to make that move. Like I know, I know anyone would leave a war, but like that drastic of a move was almost entirely because they couldn't picture like raising a child during a war. And then also in like the aftermath of all the crap that any recovering region has to go through for generations. So, yeah, I feel that kind of like obligation. 

Jon - 00:08:57: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:08:58: Not because they like placed it on me overtly in any way, but just like purely intrinsically. 

Jon - 00:09:02: Yeah, and honestly, like that story really resonates with me because my parents are also immigrants. And I think about the immigrant experience and it is like startup problems pale in comparison. 100%. Tailing comparison, this is like you know it just like is multiples more difficult, and like multiples more courageous too. In my opinion, you know maybe other people might feel differently but like especially like not knowing the language, it's just like, you are like kind of at this point where you're like, not only do I have to like, get up to speed and then catch up, like, this whole environment you talked about like the social circles that you're leaving. All of that, all that kind of like, history which usually you know, whenever I think about people who are kind of getting their start, you have this like kind of like safety net or network that you can rely on. But like exactly what you're describing like what your parents, it took a lot of courage to do that, and then just really just not have that network to like immediately call upon. And I think, I'm always impressed by like the kind of these stories and you know it it makes me, like want to like work harder, to like, I was like you made all these sacrifices. Like I can't let this sacrifice go to waste. Like, I really can't and again same thing it's not like my parents are like, you better do this. It's more of like, no I just like innately, like, I, feel compelled to do it. 

Bogdan - 00:10:28: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I have started now asking for concrete stories from my parents because I realize a lot of this stuff is half memories of my own. But I've tried to make it a point to when we're hanging out, ask them to share stuff. And it's like the amount of change across so many aspects is always mind-blowing to me. So there's all the stuff we talked about, but also even the fact that we moved. It was January, and this was back when- Global warming had not as much of an effect, but it was like they described like we came to Canada. We're like at a bus stop and it's like minus 27 degrees Celsius. We don't have a car. We're like waiting for a bus. My parents thinking like, what on earth have we done? Like, where are we? Like, what is this place? Like, for anyone who knows, any kind of North American city with a couple of exceptions, like New York, they're not very walkable. You kind of have to have a car. And so, like, just that weather aspect being unreal to them. Or even before they came. So, they had, like, figured out, you know, through different connections, like someone who was going to meet them and, like, whatever. And then days before the flight, that person basically was like, oh, I can't do it. And so, then they're trying to figure out desperately, like, what on earth do we do? And, like, trying to call people to figure out, like, does anyone have a cousin who has a cousin who has a cousin somewhere? Like, all of that is very hard to, you know, wrap my head around. Like you said, it pales. The problems and challenges of, like, even building a company, which I think is one of the hardest things to do, like, existentially just pale in comparison. Another story that they recently shared, which was, like, wow, to me is when my dad was working at one of those. I think it was at the bakery. But, like, in one of the first couple of weeks of that, my mom saying that she got a phone call at, like, 4 a.m., and it was, like, your husband, like, had an accident. And she thought, like, he, like, lost an arm. Thankfully, it was, like, his thumb and it wasn't, like, he had to, like, lose the thumb or anything like that. But just, like, it's so hard to picture, like, getting that within the first, whatever, few weeks of being in a new country and being overwhelmed by all this. But, like, not having any other options. So, yeah, those kind of things really stick with me. 

Jon - 00:12:48: Absolutely. And, like, I think when I think about these kinds of stories and experiences and, like, personal kind of, like, familial things, it's, like, not to diminish, like, the entrepreneurial effort. But it's just, like, what ends up happening, at least for me, is, like, it just makes the obstacle that I'm facing feel way more like we can get through this. We've seen harder shit before. And we've figured it out. You talked about, like, that resilience and that grittiness. And I oftentimes think about running a business or just, like, any hard initiative. It's just, like, the resilience and willingness to fight through it. Is ultimately what is like the dictating factors. Like, are you going to like toss in the towel? Are you going to figure it out? And a lot of that just comes down to just like, like being able to grit through it. That's at least what I reflect on my parents, like immigrant journey. And also, you know, same thing. Like, you know, I had a similar upbringing where I lived in a multi-generational household. So kind of same scenario. In a similar fashion, my parents were like, can finally retire. And like, I'm like, hell yeah. Like, good for you guys. You guys deserve this. Like, you guys proper deserve this. But now they're just like, they're so retired that they're just like calling me thinking I'm retired. I'm like, not retired. Like, I'm not retired. You're retired. Like, I can't come hang out with you. Like on a random, like on a random Tuesday. I have like these other things I need to be doing. I'm jealous. I enjoy it, but I can't be there. So it's good to see when your parents get to relax a little bit. 

Bogdan - 00:14:22: Yeah, it's so funny you say that because thankfully my dad, he ended up like starting a business around like insurance and tax and stuff. But thankfully he did. And he never scaled that he could have, but he never scaled it beyond like him and one other person kind of helping him. But thankfully he did that because there are finally now times where like I'm stressed. It's like very hard to explain like why all these things are like eating away at me. And if I'm like on a phone call with my parents or like texting them or whatever, first of all, he obviously understands a lot of that. And my mom also understands it because she I'll say something and she'll go, yeah, I can only imagine. Like I know how I see the same thing in your dad when I think I was commenting on. So I was recently traveling for a couple of weeks. I was commenting on how I'm like very antsy and like not able to relax for the full trip anymore because I'm like. I'm not actually switched off. I'm still thinking about work and I'm still like doing work at like stupid times in the day. And I was just describing how, you know, the last five days of the trip, it was like getting there.  

Jon - 00:15:33: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:15:33: But yeah, my mom was like, I totally get it. I see this exact same thing when I travel with your dad, like and he is, you know, a one person company. There's a lot to do, obviously, but y'all are, you know, 10 or more people, which means that like you're responsible to like other people as well. So I only imagine it in stress like compounds. So, yeah, it's funny you say that. Sometimes it's easy to forget that we're not retired.  

Jon - 00:15:57: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, thanks, dad. Like, sometimes I wish I can get to break like you right now that you're enjoying. 

Bogdan - 00:16:03: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:16:04: But, you know, you're now in Canada. What was your experience, you know, getting into the school system when you're going in the school system? Did you find a spark for science? Did you find a spark for business? What was your kind of like early schooling like? 

Bogdan - 00:16:19: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I felt very lucky because the Canadian school system, the public school system is like pretty robust and like consistent in experience, regardless of where you are. And so it's a blessing to not have to stress or have your family stress about like, oh, what school is he going to go in and just kind of focus on the fundamentals and like the nurture that happens at home and just trust that like, I'll become the person I'll become. So I thought like initially just like learning of the language was hard. And I think I was a very, I still am, we can get into that, but I was a very like energetic kid and I didn't have English and also Serbian and in general, like a lot of European culture is very physical touch oriented. And so there was like a lot of issues early, early on where like you know, like kindergarten teachers would be like, oh, you know, Bogdan needs to learn how to like use his words and not, you know, pull on someone's shirt when he wants their attention and like stuff like that. And thankfully, like, I think, I feel like I had the best of both worlds in that I had like really strict parents, but also ones that wanted to like champion me. So it was like strict to me, but outwardly it was like, okay, well, how are we going to help him get there? And so I, this is hilarious because I remember like my mom's first response to that and kind of the natural way things felt like my mom ended up very involved together with my grandma with like school related stuff. And my dad ended up very involved with like the athletics that I later did. But my mom, I remember that like. Conversation where she's like, okay, well are you gonna teach him English? Because, he's like ESL, like-

Jon - 00:17:57: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:17:57: If you wanted to use his words, which I agree. Like, what are you doing to teach him English? And, she realized like, they weren't doing anything in kindergarten. Because like that wasn't a concept back then, so she basically just took it upon herself, was like, okay, I'm just gonna teach him English. And, taught me English, within a span of like a month, enough so that I didn't have to do that. So there's a lot of that like, strictness with me, but then also like, okay, well then how do we, help you? Get better, and and like what are the real obstacles in front of you? That are not like your fault, but you just have to learn how to deal with? So a lot of my upbringing, just on the family side, was around like, again this, will sound very typical to immigrants it's like, great, you did great there, like how could you have done better. Like the only world where there isn't a better is like if it was 100. 

Jon - 00:18:45: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:18:46: Otherwise, like there's always room for improvement, like- 

Jon - 00:18:50: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:18:50: Even if it was like 99, 98 like it doesn't matter, like where's the missing?  

Jon - 00:18:54: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:18:55: Couple of percent. 

Jon - 00:18:57: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:18:57: Um, so there was a lot of that, a lot of like work at home, around just pushing me to go deeper, and the stuff I was learning, um, my grandparents were both like math professors, so like doing math with them on the side. And then in the school sense, I think, for me this kind of interest in, the sciences and math, very naturally emerged, and was something that on the math side I had a lot of great foundational work, with my grandma specifically, where I thought actually that's probably the biggest delta in curriculum between Serbia and Canada is like the quality of math you learn when you're younger. I think in Canada, I don't know what it is now, but I think basically until university, math is like not taught very well or wasn't compared to like most other countries where there is like a high population of educational institutes or a high density. And so thankfully I had that, but then everything else I thought was like pretty great in the public school system in terms of my own development in the sciences, in languages, being around a lot of other immigrants. That's a thing that I only realized later in life that I... Completely took for granted, and I think... It was very viscerally apparent to me that, especially in the U.S.., a lot of people don't have that experience unless you come from, again, one of a couple of cities. Where, I don't know what the stats are today, but like, several years ago, it was like half of people in Toronto were born outside of Canada. Which is crazy, because then there was also the people who moved and then had kids. And I would say like those kids are probably still very culturally attached to there. So like it's a majority of people there. And that was very much my reality of kind of growing up in the Toronto area. Which now I'm like so thankful for, because it exposed me to like so many different like people and cultures and just the like potential of what you can do when you have a lot of different backgrounds of individuals together.  

Jon - 00:21:03: So it sounds like the math and like science component was like kind of your strong suit as you were, you know, getting to the age where you're starting to consider universities. What was going through your mind at that point? And how did you end up selecting the university you ended up going to? I know you eventually chose to focus on Neuroscience, but what was that like? 

Bogdan - 00:21:24: Yeah, it's funny because someone recently asked me, if you didn't study what you studied, what would you have studied? I think knowing what I know now, it probably would have been math, almost definitely. I actually think that like math as a field, I think it's very different for people now. But back when I was going into university, I think it's one of the most like poorly advertised or PR'd fields it was at the time. 

Jon - 00:21:49: Yeah, I think they don't do any. They don't do any PR. 

Bogdan - 00:21:52: No, I think it was basically like, what could you do with math? It's like you could teach math, you could be like a mathematician, which to me was like, I guess you're like developing theorems. Like, I don't know. Or you could work in like finance. 

Jon - 00:22:05: Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:22:05: And none of those things sounded to me like compelling or appealing. Obviously now, I think they teach stats a lot more and then stats has implications in a lot of fields. Obviously now there's a much clearer link between math and everything happening in like ML and CS and like that world. But it was very poor PR, very poor branding. And so in my head, I was like, okay, well, I guess it's not math. And so it'll be something in science. And for neuro, it was partly on a loose guess or, you know, loosely educated whim, which was like me sitting on my computer going through the list of things I could major in. And I'll get to like how I chose the university because it's relevant. But like once I had like going through and looking and kind of like looking into each of the majors that were offered and then realizing with neuro as like a field, it was pretty new. Or this concept of like formalizing neuro as a field of study was new. It was, I think, the second year that the program existed at the university of Calgary. And I think around then was when universities in North America in general were starting to introduce it. And so that seemed exciting to me because the way that it had been constructed as a major was by bringing together the profs and heads of a bunch of different departments. Because the idea was like neuro is very complex. There are aspects of it that are psychology, like understanding like how does this manifest in human behavior. There's aspects of it that are biochemistry, like what's actually happening on like a cellular or molecular level. There's aspects of it that are like systems, same as like computer science systems and Biosystems. There's aspects of it that are definitely like School of Medicine related. And so the idea was like let's bring together a curriculum that doesn't actually have like a single department. It's people from all of these that will then there's ethics involved and stuff like that. So that to me was very compelling because I just thought it was like a fascinating way to learn about a field where you're not taking the same kind of cookie cutter courses that like all the other science majors seem to be taking. At a time when we were learning so much about the field like we were back then. In terms of the school itself, the biggest factor other than academics at play was athletics. So I had been competitively swimming at a pretty high level at that point. And so that meant that I wanted to go to a school where I could keep doing that. So the first decision point was like, do I go to the U.S.. Kind of typical like NCAA scholarship route? Do I stay in Canada? And I think there's, you know, a lot of like polarizing opinions on that. I think my takeaway at the time was the U.S., obviously has like greater volume and density of athletic like eliteness. It is also more unforgiving in that because it's such a commercialized thing. And I'm generalizing. This is definitely obviously not the case, you know, case by case. But you are much more likely to be thought of as like a number and like a replaceable number. And so if you have a bad season or a couple of bad seasons, in the vast majority of cases, chances are you will kind of get left behind because there's like 10 other people that could do the thing. And so when I contrasted that to my experience of Canadian universities, and yes, there was less of them, there was a handful that I could train at that level. But the ones that did have that caliber took a much more kind of personal approach. And so the first decision was like, okay, let's stay in Canada and let's go to a school that has not just a program I would like, but also a strong swim team. 

Jon - 00:25:55: Very cool. And I can say like it can be cutthroat in kind of like the athletic programs. I like, you know, I grew up playing lacrosse and collegiate lacrosse, and it is hardcore. It is hardcore. But it has pros and cons, pros and cons to it all. 

Bogdan - 00:26:12: Of course. 

Jon - 00:26:13: You know, to go back to your funny comment on math, having poor PR and branding, it's so true. And I think like, you know, whatever field that you're in, I think it behooves anyone in the field to try and make the topic cool. As much as that sounds like, I don't know. Wo-woo soft like Making something appear cool will really just bring more people in to push the field forward. And I think that's important because if you just neglect that, people are going to go study other things. Your talent pipeline is not going to be as great, right? Now, you know, AI/ML is very cool. So math is now cool. Like stats is now cool, right? And that just like will inspire future generations of people to study it, right? So it's like the more a field can do that, the better you're setting your future generation or at least the future generations of your field up for progress. If I, when I was looking or thinking back on like, what would I have studied if I didn't, you know, study biochemistry, basically, I probably would have studied stats. That was like the first time it was, it kind of was a bummed me out that like free university stats wasn't really taught. I didn't find out stats. It was fun until I got just like university. And I was like, this bums me out. Like this would have been cool if I, if I knew this earlier, because I used to hate math until I got to stats and I was like, oh, this is cool and fun. But then I was like, it's a little bit too late. I'm already, I'm so, I'm so deep in biochemistry now that like, I can't reverse this. But like, if I had an opportunity to, I probably would have gone into stats. And, you know, on your kind of academic and athletic journey, competing at such a high level, did you do it for all the university? 

Bogdan - 00:28:04: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:28:04: How was that experience? Like, it must have been like, I, I like, unfortunately could not balance the two. So I ended up stopping collegiate sports around like sophomore year. And I was like, I need to hit the books. Like, how did you balance the two? And like, what was that like called the collegiate experience, like sports experience for you? 

Bogdan - 00:28:23: Yeah, it was wild. 

Jon - 00:28:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bogdan - 00:28:25: I look back now, I'm like, oh my God. I'm thankful that I had that discipline like instilled in me. But- 

Jon - 00:28:32: Yeah.  

Bogdan - 00:28:33: It's crazy to think of like trying to learn that discipline now almost feels like impossible. I think I had a couple of things working for me. In addition to obviously my family pushing me to just like, always like, push how do you be better? Like, how do you learn more? And so that obviously filled up my my day, like as a kid, or when I was younger. The other thing I really like drilled it into me was that swimming was very demanding from a schedule, standpoint right away. So I when I started which would have been, like, uh, nine years old. Like it starts at, like a few practices a week, and then, already by the time I was 12? 13, 12, I was doing nine workouts a week. 

Jon - 00:29:20: Oh my god. Wow.

Bogdan - 00:29:23: So it's very night and day compared to, like, 12 is the age I stopped all my other sports that I was doing, the one that had survived. The up until that point together with swimming was soccer but soccer at that point, was like one practice. And one game a week. 

Jon - 00:29:42: Very different, yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:29:42: Very different, and so I actually imagine that, like, a lot of sports, something's not the only sport. But I would say, that like probably a lot of sports, or programs, within a sport, don't demand that level, that early on. 

Jon - 00:29:55: Well, just for comparison for mine, at nine to twelve, we were probably for the cross, we're probably doing maximum five max. And then a game on a weekend, so I guess six, but that would be max, and like, we probably, like, for the early years we're maxing out at three a week. So, nine, it's like a multiple of three. 

Bogdan - 00:30:20: Yeah, I think you know, that was partly just the nature of the sport, and also partly the program I was in. Was a high performance program, where the coach, was known for producing like, young phenoms, and developing them. And so to me, that was just the foundational, aspect of learning discipline. Because that meant that for, all of middle school, and all of high school, my schedule roughly would have been get up at 4:30, train for two hours, go to school, have a school day, come back ,train for two to three more hours, get home eat, dinner. So it's like 7 p.m. now, do your school work, and then, and like what if there are any other chores, my family actually were pretty good at like shielding me from chores, during the week. On the weekend I didn't have to help with stuff, and now as a kid I remember dreading, it's like, coming home Saturday morning, from a third Saturdays were like, three, three and a half hours, and then being like, all right, uh, it's nice out, like we're gonna do some yard work, I'm like, oh my god. 

Jon - 00:31:22: No, please, no, not this. 

Bogdan - 00:31:26: So that schedule, I got used to, it so I think when, I got to university, you know, probably the biggest difference at that point, is like autonomy. Because I also was in a different city. But that discipline had already been instilled in me, so there are I like the desire, to like do good things with my energy. And so, I just held on to that schedule, I did have to make one change, and that's more specific to the sciences, which you'll know having done it. Which is that when you study science in university, you don't only have the lectures, but you have often the same amount of hours in lab, and then plus a tutorial. So actually, taking you know, I think whatever five courses, would have been a full course load. Actually taking five courses, is probably eight to nine courses worth. And so I did take one course off, and basically do my undergrad over an extra year. I tried it for the first two weeks, and I was like, this is so good. 

Jon - 00:32:18: This is not happening, this is actually physically impossible. I'm thoroughly impressed that you were able to actually balance the collegiate sport while doing, you know, science plus lab. Because for me, what had to give was like, I had to just give up sports, which was such a major part of my life growing up. That it like really like I had like this exis that, it's kind of that thing where you're just like, whoa, like this is a part of your identity that you're shedding. And it was kind of this weird, like I can still remember that feeling where I was like, oh, this is going to zero. I was like. This is weird, but I know exactly what you're kind of describing that discipline and that kind of like athletic rigor. What I did was just like, I just brought it to hitting the books and going to lab. I was like, I was super competitive in athletics. It's time to just really hit like science really hard. Like the way I kind of just like wake up, do the thing. And then just like, you know, it's kind of, you know, you know, it is, it's like, you have to practice. It's kind of like that practicing mindset where it's like, I'm going to practice and hone this craft. And I've always like thought about how much that even applies to like entrepreneurship and like that discipline that you carry with you. It just like, it works everywhere. Like it works everywhere with most things. I guess the one thing you kind of go all the way back about, you're talking about like traveling and just hard to turn it off. That is the double-edged sword. It's hard to turn it off. And sometimes my wife is like, you need to turn it off. And I'm like, I'm trying, I'm trying to turn it off, but it's really, really hard. This is like deep seated, like just like ingrained into my DNA. And we like to go to Hawaii for vacation. And I'm like on the beach. She's like, you don't look like you're relaxing. I'm like sitting in paradise. I don't have a device, but she's like, you're thinking about something that is stressing you out right now. Can you just like somehow not think about that? I'm trying. I'm trying to relax. I'm trying to relax right now. But you mentioned that you had a lab experience, undergraduate lab experience. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Bogdan - 00:34:23: Yeah. Within neuro, a lot of the courses were like typical science courses, which meant that there was a component where you had to just like go in lab and learn how to do certain techniques. And one thing that I really thought was very cool for neuro specifically was that they made us recreate a bunch of the like foundational neuro findings with the tools that people would have had back then. So like patch clamping and like looking at like frog eggs and basically like under microscope trying to get like a needle to like just be touching without bursting the outside. And then you have to like. Give the contraption like a flick of the right intensity so it like penetrates the membrane, but doesn't like blow up the whole thing so that then you can put current through it and like measure. Which I thought was like super fascinating because first of all, it's always mind-blowing to me of like the stuff that we discovered when we had like such rudimentary tools. But then it also gives you an appreciation for like what's complex about the science and why the advances in the technology that underpin the science are so important because it's not just that like, oh, we're developing better theories. It's like, well, we also have like tools that let you do so much more, which then let you cognitively offload a lot of things that you can focus more on. It's actually like a big premise of like Kaleidoscope, and I'm sure we'll touch on that. But there was a lot of that, which I thought was like really cool. I remember the one aspect of it that I dreaded was when we did like neuroanatomy and it's like the classic meme, I've seen memes on this. It's like the anatomy textbook you're studying versus the test itself. The textbook's like perfectly multicolored and labeled and then you go into the lab and it's brain slices and everything is the same like kale white and it's just, there's a pin in something. It's like, what is this? You're trying to guess like, what is the pin in? Like, I have no idea. This brain looks atypical. But yeah, so there's a lot, a big lab component and I did have to still do quite a bit of work, which ended up being a big blessing, I think, in the end to make the program work with my swimming schedule. And the forcing function for me was in first year neuro. Part of the curriculum is a two months, basically retreat where you live near Banff in Canada and like the Rocky Mountains. And there was like a big research center there and you would do like a spring course entirely focused on like lab methods. And it was a really cool, a really cool thing. I couldn't do it because the months it is, which is May and June, like all the peak competitions and swimming in July and August and the qualifying events are in June. So I was like, well, there's no way that I can take like more than like to put it perspective. Like the most I was taking off consecutively in a given calendar year would have been like a week and a half to two. So there was no way I was going to do that. So that was like a big hurdle initially. And so thankfully the department itself was like very understanding because as soon as they realized that I wasn't just like someone trying to get out of doing a thing because I wanted to travel and like I had like a legitimate reason, they helped me make it up. And so the idea was, okay, you're going to have two components that you're missing by not going to this. There's all the theory behind all the things we're going to learn. And then there's the practical experience. And so let's figure out how to break that apart. And actually the prof who taught the theoretical part agreed to just for me to come in like in evenings a couple of times a week over a semester. And he would just one-on-one teach me this stuff. And he's like this like very intimidating, um, a Dutch guy, and so that was like, as a first year undergrad or like very intimidating to have like, a one-on-one problem and then ask you like, so wait, why do you think this is the answer? And like, I'd only ever had like my parents do that to me before. 

Jon - 00:38:28: I'm freaked out. I know that intense. Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:38:31: It was a lot, but it was a really good push. And I'm very thankful that he was willing to just do that for me. And then similarly, on the research side, I got really lucky because I worked with Ken Lukowiak, who agreed to basically take me on and teach me how do you do scientific research properly. And not just teach me, but so, I ended up basically working on different research projects from first year undergrad all throughout like five years with him. And then, publishing like three first author papers because his mindset was like, he doesn't need to be first author because he's like proven himself. And why do those badges matter anymore? He has like funding in a good lab and like interesting research. He knows that for like a young scientist, that's like a really valuable learning experience. And so, and the culture, I guess he had cultivated there was one where the postdocs that were working on this didn't also feel the pressure to like get as many first authorships as possible. Like they had their own work that they were working on and they would need to help me occasionally and like teach me stuff. But they wanted to empower me and like put me in the driver's seat. 

Jon - 00:39:44: I'm going to say straight up, I'm like jaw drop. That's awesome.  

Bogdan - 00:39:47: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:39:48: Like, really.  

Bogdan - 00:39:49: For the record, I did not have a first authorship paper coming out of grad school.  

Jon - 00:39:53:Yeah. 

Bogdan - 00:39:55: There's different reasons behind that, but like I did it. So to me, like that whole, like, I don't think at the moment, at the time I realized like how crazy cool and like, rare that was. But now looking back, I was like, damn, that was special. 

Jon - 00:40:10: That's so sweet because I think, you know, kind of reminds, kind of on the same wavelength as like, you've got to think about the future generation of the field. Much like if you care about math, you should probably try and make math cool. So people want to study math. If we don't make math cool, no one wants to study it. And then we just forget. Right. And this is exactly kind of a real practical application or this has less to do with coolness, but it's more about empowering the future generation. Because if you don't, then what's left? It's kind of the similar, I think about this in business too, where it's like, I know everyone wants to fund serial entrepreneurs. I know everybody wants to fund a person who's like, this is their 10th rodeo. I get it. It's de-risked. The bet's easier. It's not, not a hard concept, but if you don't fund first time founders. You will not have serial entrepreneurs. They will be an extinct thing, right? Because every serial entrepreneur... Was once a first-time founder, right? And it's kind of like this. It's like, if you want, and I love that the prof was like, hell yeah, go for it. Like, you know, this is an opportunity for you to grow into this and like really start to, you know, get beyond the driver's seat and even all the way down through like the PhDs and postdocs, right? Yeah, I got these projects, but this one can be yours. I think it's an awesome thing. It's a kind of a pay it forward kind of mentality because you care about the sum of the parts rather than just like me, me, me, me, me. I need to stack more first authorships. And, you know, maybe I'm getting too philosophical with it, but I think it's like important. And you kind of see it, like when you think about entrepreneurial areas all over the world, and you're trying to like, why does this area have such a thriving entrepreneurial ecosystem? I'd always think about the willingness to give back to the future, pay it forward, like to the future generation. And if you don't do that, that's like, the ecosystem doesn't really work. And I think at least having grown up in the Bay Area, I'm just like, I realize now how lucky this kind of cultural mindset is because it's not everywhere. Much like how in your probably, as you mentioned, like going to your grad school, very different experience I'm going to imagine. But that's kind of, you know, something that really stood out to me.  

Bogdan - 00:42:35: Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think I reached the same conclusions when I was trying to reflect on what was, for example, underpinning Toronto not having taken off as like an entrepreneurial hub to the potential that I think it has, especially given like, again, this enrichment of like people who had to grind or whose families have to have had to grind, like diversity of experience and thought, like great institutions, like great science, great city itself. And I think a big thing is like, yeah, you need some kind of critical mass of people who ended up successful and who are like happy to pay things forward with basically no strings attached or like on their own dime or give their own time and to do that consistently. And then you get to a point where. I think you get these like thriving ecosystems, but yeah, we're, we're digressing now, but yeah, I agree.  

Jon - 00:43:28: Yeah, you know, but that's for real. 

Outro - 00:43:31: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Bogdan Knezevic. In part two, we'll dive into Bogdan's experience as an undergrad in Canada, his decision to pursue Neuroscience, and what it was like juggling elite level athletics with lab research and publishing. He also shares the story behind his Rhodes Scholarship, why he chose Oxford, and how a childhood love of Lord of the Rings unexpectedly helped shape his path. If you're enjoying the episode, follow the show, leave us a review and share it with a friend. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or Bogdans. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.