Grit, Curiosity, & the Biotech Breakthrough Mindset | Ivan Liachko (Part 1/4)

Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup, from pre-seed to IPO, with your host, Jon Chee. 

Jon - 00:00:29: My guest today is Ivan Liachko, founder and CEO at Phase Genomics. Phase Genomics was founded with the mission of maximizing the impact of genomics on society. With the vast majority of biological information remaining unexplored, Phase Genomics seeks to empower researchers to make breakthrough discoveries using the power of advanced, next-generation genomic tools. The cornerstone of their approach lies in a technology called Proximity Ligation, which enables unprecedented improvements in the depth and quality of information generated from DNA sequencing efforts. From tracking viruses and their targets to detecting chromosomal abnormalities in oncology samples, their molecular and computational tools add a new dimension to genomic information. By continuously developing new genomic methods, Phase Genomics seeks to bring transformative change to research, industry, and the clinic. Ivan is a molecular geneticist with over two decades of experience in wet lab and computational biology. He's passionate about applying genomic technology to improve our world and mentoring scientists who are interested in commercialization. Ivan received his PhD from Cornell and has authored over 50 peer-reviewed papers and created multiple patents specializing in the field of microbial genomics and synthetic biology. He's one of the original inventors of Phase Genomics Core Technology and has served as CEO since their founding. With deep expertise in genomics, synthetic biology, and entrepreneurship, Ivan offers a unique perspective on translating scientific innovation into real-world impact, making this a conversation you won't want to miss. Over the next four episodes, Ivan shares how his passion for genetics, nature, and clever science led him from academic research to founding Phase Genomics. He reflects on his time in the lab, the discovery of proximity ligation, and how it unlocked breakthroughs in genome assembly, microbiome research, and structural variant detection. Ivan also explores the challenges of company building, the role of non-dilutive funding, and how FaZe is positioned at the forefront of biology's next information revolution. Today, we're diving into Ivan's early years growing up in Kyiv, immigrating to the U.S., and the early spark that drew him to genetics. He shares stories of paging through a Soviet-era biology encyclopedia as a kid, getting his first lab job at 16, and how persistence, not polish, helped him break into science. We'll also explore how Ivan's upbringing shaped his leadership style, what it was like navigating school as an immigrant, and how a deep curiosity for biology opened doors throughout his early career. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. Ivan, so good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast.  

Ivan - 00:02:49: Hi, Jon. Thanks so much for having me. 

Jon - 00:02:51: So I know it's been a while since we last chatted, but, you know, as we were getting prepared for this conversation and thinking about where to start, we really wanted to just go back to the earliest days to really just like unpack kind of what got you into science, kind of what were some formative moments that influenced your leadership style and your business philosophy? So. If you could, could you take us back to, you know, your upbringing? What was it like? And tell us a little bit about that. 

Ivan - 00:03:17: Yeah, totally. So I grew up in Kyiv, in Ukraine. I immigrated to the U.S., when I was 11 years old. And so the first few years, you know, up to like grade three or whatever it was, I lived in the Soviet Union. This was right before they split. And so my upbringing was, you know, my family were, they were academics. They were, you know, they were professors and things like that. Nobody was a biologist. They were all like math people and stuff. But I became really interested in bio and life science stuff super early, like a kid. Like, you know, a lot of kids want to be like astronauts and fire people and stuff like that. I just wanted to be, I wanted to do genetics. 

Jon - 00:03:59: Yeah. Rare rare. 

Ivan - 00:04:00: And it's largely because, it was very interesting I remember I had this giant book of like it was like a some kind of like weird like communist biology, uh, like encyclopedia, but it was just fascinating all the pictures and stuff like that. So I was super into it from a very young age, and so you know later like when I came to the U.S., I started working in labs when I was 16 years old, like being a biologist- All I want to do, like I never had like, like, like I was like either that or some the doctor, of some sort, but- 

Jon - 00:04:31: Yeah. 

Ivan - 00:04:31: But basically doing, life science biology genetic research, like, like that was always what I wanted to do.  

Jon - 00:04:38: Sweet.  

Ivan - 00:04:38: And so I only ever did that. So when I started Phase, one of the fun facts, is people were like, what kind of company do you want? How do you want to run it? What kind of culture? And I was like, I've never worked at a company, before I've worked in labs for like 20 years, I've never worked at a company. So I've been a scientist, like all the time.  

Jon - 00:04:58: Yeah. 

Ivan - 00:04:58: And, um, at some point in high school, uh, I was living in Philadelphia and we immigrated we moved we lived in Philly. I won this kind of like summer undergrad, like high school internship thing, at UPenn. And I just started working in the lab, I- You know doing, super basic, you know, like high school student, science stuff.  

Jon - 00:05:17: It's basically doing the dishes, almost.  

Ivan - 00:05:20: Doing the dishes is one, and they would let me like, purify a plasmid once in a while.  

Jon - 00:05:25: Yeah. 

Ivan - 00:05:25: Like that kind of thing. And then like my fellowship ended, but I just went back to them and I was just like, hey, can I work here more? And I just would pesto them, until they let me. And like every summer, I was just like charming about it and cute, and so they would like, they would like let me.  

Jon - 00:05:39: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:05:40: And so, that's how it was it was just like, I just kept going back, and I was like give me another job, give me more work.  

Jon - 00:05:45: I love that. 

Ivan - 00:05:46: And the same thing, in undergrad, and, so basically, like that's all I've ever wanted to do, is to work in labs, and be a scientist, um, in this space. But that's kind of how my story goes, the early stages, is just like fell in love with it, super early on, had a lot of encouragement from family. Now the other wrinkle is, obviously, had I stayed, had I not immigrated to the U.S. It never would have happened, right? So very grateful for that, for that turn of events.  

Jon - 00:06:15: It's funny, because I'm thinking back when I was 16, I was like you, screwing around on a skateboard, I was like-  

Ivan - 00:06:21: I wasn't not screwing around.  

Jon - 00:06:24: Yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:06:24: Like, that was like my job thing.  

Jon - 00:06:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna well I, I guess I wasn't nearly as ambitious, in the, in my or at least, I was ambitious, but I had not yet found the calling. You can't really time those things up when you find those kind of like moments of inspiration. But that's really cool. It's funny, the communist biology book, you're just like, rad, like this is it.  

Ivan - 00:06:48: There's stuff in there. I don't know what it is, right? But there's pictures or DNA. There's, you know. I think a lot of scientists are like that. A lot of people are like, they're just kind of enthralled with like the subject matter itself.  

Jon - 00:07:00: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:07:00: And that's what keeps them going through, you know, grad school and all that stuff or making sub minimum wage. And they're like, that's what keeps you going. Like, like there's something about it like that, like the little DNA picture I have back there. It's just like it just compels you to work on it.  

Jon - 00:07:15: Yeah, and I would say like the willingness to run through walls derives from that. Inevitably, you're going to like face these obstacles and you're just like, the question is like, how bad do you want it? Or how compelling is that thing? And if you just like wake up, you're like, I actually don't really like this at all.  

Ivan - 00:07:33: Right, right. It's not a logical decision process, right? It's a process that's based on passion. You know, and passion is chaos. You're doing unreasonable things, sometimes for reasons you can't explain to anyone why. You're just like, that's just what I want.  

Jon - 00:07:50: Yeah, absolutely. And from your parents' perspective, you know, they're like, okay, you're not going into math. Was there ever a kind of like, but they're like, were they pumped that you're like into academia? They're like, hell yeah.  

Ivan - 00:08:02: It was different there. I mean, people just, I mean, everybody wants to be educated and it's like an honored thing, right? Like it's nobody ever criticized you for wanting to be a scientist, right? You know, like I didn't really face any downward pressure that way.  

Jon - 00:08:15: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:08:15: There are careers where people will be like, potentially parents will like frown upon.  

Jon - 00:08:20: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:08:21: You know, you're like, yo, my kid wants to be a scientist. Like no one's going to have a, no one's going to have a problem with that. Right.  

Jon - 00:08:27: Yeah. I was reading the Michael Dell book and his parents were, I believe physicians. They're just like doctors. And he was like, yeah, I want to build computers and like sell them from this garage. And they're like. What? They were like, how could you? Like, this is, this is not, this is not in the cards. But, um, you know, we know how that ends but, um.  

Ivan - 00:08:50: Yeah, I mean, my situation was very encouraging. It was like more education, more science. Like, of course, we encourage a kid to do that stuff.  

Jon - 00:08:58: Hell yeah. And so, you know, you're getting your early lab experience in high school at, you know, and then also one thing that stood out to me is like the value of persistence. For anyone listening out there, there's like, what is the saying? It's better to be annoying than forgotten.  

Ivan - 00:09:15: That's my motto. That's my motto. A lot of my employees will attest to this.  

Jon - 00:09:20: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe that too. Like, I mean, there's something to be said about that persistence. And especially at that age, it's probably really endearing. You're just like, why wouldn't you want to feed that curiosity for anyone out there who's like, because a lot of the time people are like, how do you get these first roles? It's just like, you know, show up and be persistent and be authentic. Like, are you actually interested in this thing? More often than not, people are like, oh, this person is really into this. Like, come on in.  

Ivan - 00:09:48: Yeah, totally. Right. And there's grown up versions of that. It's called grit. There's like more advanced, but it's the same disease, right? It's like, I just want to do this. I'm just going to do it. I'm not going to wait for someone to like give me permission. Right.  

Jon - 00:10:02: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:10:02: So a lot of times it comes with a certain level of just like ignorance or like just naivete. Right. Like, yeah, you don't know not to do it. They're like, I'm like, you don't know that you're supposed to be like embarrassed or shy or whatever. You're just like, like you're just a little bit dumb.  

Jon - 00:10:20: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:10:21: I'm going to go into this guy's office and ask him for a job like everyone else. Like, oh, my God, you're not smart.  

Jon - 00:10:27: What's wrong with this?  

Ivan - 00:10:28: That's not cool.  

Jon - 00:10:29: Yeah. This is not how it's usually done.  

Ivan - 00:10:31: Like, right.  

Jon - 00:10:32: But like, I love that because I think, and especially as like a young student, and I think I've said this probably before, but it's just like people are even more receptive.  

Ivan - 00:10:41: Well, you know what I tell people is, again, because I coach startups and founders and people are thinking about founding stuff periodically. I'm like, imagine somebody did that to you. Like, imagine you had a student who said, dear so-and-so, can I just, like, talk to you for 20 minutes about this startup idea? Like, what would you do? You'd be like, how dare you?  

Jon - 00:11:00: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:11:01: No, you'd be like, of course I want to talk to you about it. Come on over. Like, people love that stuff. So you're like, you think you're inconveniencing this guy. Like, that's probably to him going to be the most enjoyable conversation he has that day. So, like, don't be afraid. Like, ask people for chats and help and ideas. Like, people love that stuff. You're not going to make anybody mad. The worst that's going to happen is they're going to say no or they're going to ignore your email.  

Jon - 00:11:24: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's spot on. And it's like, it's that authentic curiosity. Just like, it's infectious, really, to be quite honest. And, like, I mean, I take those calls all the time. And I'm like, hell yeah, this is awesome.  

Ivan - 00:11:37: I get sales pitches from professionals a million times a day. And I almost always just like delete, ignore, delete, ignore, delete, ignore. If a student asks me, hey, can I talk to you for 20 minutes about the startup I'm trying to found? There's like a 98% chance I'm going to say yes. It's like the most successful kind of outreach version when it's like an actual human being trying to learn something from you.  

Jon - 00:12:01: Yeah, spot on. And so like, it sounds like you were a beneficiary of, you know, obviously everything we're described right now, as you are approaching graduation, take us back to when you're like evaluating colleges to go to. Where were you looking at? Did you have your major? Like, I'm going to study biology at this university. What were you thinking at that time?  

Ivan - 00:12:21: So one of the things about immigration, and people may not realize it, immigration is really, really hard. Beyond like money and that kind of thing. Even if you're not getting harassed by ICE and all this, right? And one of the difficulties with being an immigrant is that you don't understand how the system works, right? Like your parents, like they don't know how to fill out any paperwork. They don't know how taxes work. Like if you suddenly had to move to some faraway land, you know, you have to be like, how do I get a driver's license? Like, and you don't speak the language, or at least well enough, like the older generation generally, like the kids pick up languages pretty quick. But like the parents, you know, they have to like learn it. Like, like you're reading all this documentation. You don't know what any of it means. And so when it came to college application, again, nobody, like nobody knows. Like your parents don't know what are the good colleges.  

Jon - 00:13:10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:13:11: You know, like when you live in a society, you kind of know how the process works. And you know, like, there's like websites to research things and all this stuff. Back then they didn't have anything. And so like, I don't know, I'm a kid, like, I'm like, which college? So like, what are my criteria? I've, you know, I've lived in Philly, and I, I didn't know about 99.9% of the country, right? So how do you choose a college? Well, you go, okay, what kind of criteria can I put on this? You're like, well, how about stuff that's close to home?  

Jon - 00:13:42: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:13:43: You're like-  

Jon - 00:13:43: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:13:44: I don't know. What else? Schools that are good in biology, like I knew that was going to be a focus for me. Schools that are good in biology and also are close to home. Why did I want to stay close to home? No reason. Like, what else can I possibly say? So, you know, they have the common application where you just basically Xerox it back when Xeroxes used to happen, and you mail it to a bunch of different schools that are like, you check the boxes on the list, and you're like, mail this app.  

Jon - 00:14:13: Yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:14:15: And so I applied to, you know, I really wanted to go to Penn because I worked there for a long time. And, you know, it's one of those things where you like fall in love with the university just because that was the first one you worked at. So you're like, I must go to Penn. And I didn't end up getting into Penn and like crushed me a little bit.  

Jon - 00:14:33: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:14:35: But that's what happens, right? Like you're like, I'm going to apply to this one school. I'm sure they're going to take me. And you don't get in. You're like, oh, my God. But there was a friend of mine. And she was going to a school in Boston. To me, Boston might have as well been like Antarctica. Like it's like a different city. I'm 18 years old. I don't know anything. But they ended up accepting me and giving me a really good package. It was Brandeis University right next to Boston in a town called Waltham. It was a great school. I ended up going there. Like a world opened up to me where I was like, oh my God, Boston is an amazing place. Like, I love it.  

Jon - 00:15:10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:15:10: In colleges, it's all students. It's like a whole new world. So I went to my undergrad largely on luck. I applied to a bunch of other places, but this was the best one. And it came on my list because a friend was like, I'm going there. You should go there too. And I was like, okay, an extra check on the common application because I just didn't know what I was doing.  

Jon - 00:15:30: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:15:31: Nobody would help me, like, the like, there's like the high school counselors. But you know, like-  

Jon - 00:15:35: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:15:35: They're not that useful, um, and the parents don't know, you don't have a network you don't know how to do this. So, it was dumb luck. I mean, I would say a lot of applications, like that are dumb luck. Because then I went you know, when I applied to grad school again, you select some schools that are good in your area. And then you just like send applications. You don't know these places. You've never been there. And then you just look for one to accept it.  

Jon - 00:15:56: Yeah. Which is kind of funny when you think about it. Like the way you describe it is just like, it almost feels random, but also at the same time, like the randomness is like, it's a major inflection point usually for people's lives. It's like, you know, oftentimes when you go to like universities or grad school, you like end up setting roots and like the community starts to shape you. And it's funny how you're like, it can be just like, all right, checking the boxes and then see what comes. And then you just take what you can get.  

Ivan - 00:16:26: It's random, but then you pick the outcome, right? So it's like there is a randomness to it, but it's actually very directed because then you pick what happens at the end, right? It's like somebody – I forget who to attribute this quote to, but it said what you're trying to do is you're trying to expose yourself to the largest surface area of luck.  

Jon - 00:16:47: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:16:47: Right? You just try a bunch of stuff because you don't know what's out there.  

Jon - 00:16:52: Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:16:52: Then when you get some wins, you can pick amongst them and you'll be surprised, right? And that's what I tell students when they ask me about applications. I'm like, just apply to everything. You don't know what's out there. You've never been to Denver or whatever, right? Like there's great schools there. Apply to a bunch of schools in Denver. You might find out it's an amazing place, which it is, but it's not on your mental radar. But just like throw stuff out there. And then when you get that lucky win, you pick it and you follow it.  

Jon - 00:17:18: Yeah. And it kind of reminds me also to just like even extending beyond school, but it's kind of like manufacturing like serendipity.  

Ivan - 00:17:26: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:17:27: Right? It's kind of this thing where I think for me, I'm more introverted. You know, I used to think I was extroverted. I met friends of mine who were like, saw them in action who were proper extroverts. I was like, oh, that's, that's a whole another level. Um, but like, I was like, ah, I don't really want to go out there. I like, I'd like to just be heads down kind of like doing my thing. And then I was like, I came out of my shell and like put myself out there a little bit more and increase that surface area. I was like, Holy moly. Like, I never knew that any, like, like the super, you know, thing that came out of the, you know, the woodwork does like opportunities presented themselves, which I would have, if I continue to stay in my shell, like it would have never, ever been a thing. So I love that. And I think, you know, for those who are introverted, like I recommend like, just like stretching a little bit, um, and getting out there and just like putting yourself that out there a little bit more, cause you will be surprised at kind of like what opportunities come forth.  

Ivan - 00:18:24: Yeah, absolutely. You know, what's cool is that the world is a much bigger place than you realize. Like the startup journey really taught me that too. Because you realize that you can do like anything, right? You know, a lot of times when I talk to academics who are studying a particular thing. So I did most of my academic career, like grad school and stuff. I worked in the humble yeast, which people are like, who does yeast? Who cares about yeast? But you're like, but that's like a lot of discoveries like come from yeast. It's like it's the crucible of a lot of inventions. But a lot of people in the yeast space think that they have no career outside of yeast research.  

Jon - 00:19:07: Yep.  

Ivan - 00:19:07: We're used to it. We're used to saying this is what I work on. And you define yourself as that thing. And then you basically go, I have no marketable skills because all I know is this. This is the only thing I do. And we limit ourselves like crazy. And breaking out in one of the things that going into the like, business kind of environment taught me is that there really aren't barriers like that. Like, you can be like a yeast biologist for 20 years and then start selling like Power Bikes or whatever.  

Jon - 00:19:39: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:19:40: Or whatever. Like you can literally do anything. You can start a service company. You can start a company where you're just helping other people learn stuff. You can become a YouTuber. You can start manufacturing things. There's a company here in Seattle, one of my friends and one of the best like young companies here, I think, is called A-Alpha. They use yeast display to basically screen drug targets. I use David, their CEO, David Younger, their founder and CEO. I use him as an example for the yeast people. I'm like, you yeast people. Here's a guy who started a company using like yeast screening and doing drugs for pharma. And it's amazingly successful. Like that's an example for folks who say there's no marketable skills here. Like the world is infinite. There's so many things you can do. You're worried about it because you're scared of losing your like whatever academic thing. And it's only like, you know, you get pushed out of the nest. You realize actually the world is huge. The opportunity set is almost unlimited. You can do almost anything you want. And it's super encouraging, you know, even in difficult times. I read a lot and watch a lot of YouTube videos from people who do other business things. Just so cool to like, you become less of like, I am this person, and this is my job. And I'm defined this way to say, like, I'm actually like a traveler in this kind of like river of life, where everything is happening. Some of it is science, some of it is not science, there's human interactions. And like, I'm just taking part of that. And I can do whatever, right?

 Jon - 00:21:10: I think that's a really important point. And I think, especially when I talked to, to folks who are going through grad school, they're just like, there's a kind of this existential dread. And they're, they're like, Oh, my God, like, this skill set is not marketable. And I'm like, it absolutely like, the point is-  

Ivan - 00:21:30: You don't understand what the skill set is.  

Jon - 00:21:32: Yes.  

Ivan - 00:21:33: You have, you have drawn a little straw man of yourself.  

Jon - 00:21:37: Yeah. 

Ivan - 00:21:38: You're saying that guy can never get a job, but that's actually not you. To some extent, I blame academia for this because it makes people think that. It makes people think there's certain abusive parts of that. Nobody's doing it on purpose, but the system is basically, it's almost like telling you, if I don't like you, no one else will like you. There's a toxic part of academia that does that to people, but you're like, no, no, that's not you. You can do a bazillion other things. You're super good at it. You just learned to value yourself based on your one skill set. But anyway, that's a whole other tirade to go on.  

Jon - 00:22:14: But I think it is important because I think it's like you've been taught how to think if you abstract it a little bit. It's just like how to problem solve and how to think and how to deal with uncertainty. And it's like a grown up term of gritting, like grit, right? You're like, you really it's like getting through, you know, tough shit.  

Ivan - 00:22:33: Exactly. What's more gritful or whatever than getting your PhD when like, especially in life sciences where 99% of what you do doesn't work.  

Jon - 00:22:41: Yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:22:42: You have to keep trying, keep trying, keep hammering. And then six years later, you have your thesis and you're like, oh, man, I could have done all this work in the last six months had I known all this stuff. But you had to break through and learn for the first five years or whatever. And that process is irreplaceable.  

Jon - 00:23:01: Yep.  

Ivan - 00:23:01: But people don't value it because you can't quantitate it because you didn't like succeed. Right. You're like you feel like you were failing for years and then you just succeeded at the very end. And so you're like, I don't have any skills. You're like, that thing you did is incredible. Like most people don't get to do this. 

Jon - 00:23:17: Yeah. Yeah. And also, it's like very reminiscent of running a business. You're like-  

Ivan - 00:23:23: Yes, exactly.  

Jon - 00:23:24: Which is the craziest part because, I'm like, anytime I talk to a grad student or a postdoc, I'm just like, this is like your trial run if you want to. Like starting a business is not, I will never say it's for everybody. But it's like, I don't know. Like that was a pretty good trial run.  

Ivan - 00:23:42: Right, exactly. Like you watch any of these like visionaries or YouTube things and TED Talks. It's about like the power of failure, how important it is to fail and learn and get back on your feet and try again and fail again. And you're like, what's more like that than your PhD, right? You literally just did that for six years. You're like, you did that. Like that's what startup life is going to be like. And people are like, oh, I'm scared. I don't know about uncertainty. You're like uncertainty, you're making 20 grand a year working like 60, 70 hours a week. 

Jon - 00:24:15: Yeah. And the light at the end of the tunnel is like non-existent for a lot of it. That's why I always get back to like starting a company. It's like there's that personal element, too, is that if you get through that and if you're like, I can do that again. And like I personally can like, you know, embrace this kind of element. Then, okay, for sure. Then like perhaps like starting a business is like in it for you. But like if you if for anyone out there who's like, oh, I hated that because, that is what your life is going to be. Because like that element of like wanting to run through walls, like you've got to kind of like it. And honestly, I don't think it ever gets better. I feel like even as you get to scale and maturity, you're still like kind of feeling around. And like it does not is not as calculated as people outside looking in. It might appear.  

Ivan - 00:25:06: And I do think, you know, again, like, you know, people ask me, like, can I do a startup? I'm like, well, I did it. So you can, too. Like, it's not like I'm a super. But there are things that. Help or make it harder, like certain traits. I mean, I've sort of kind of landed on this saying where like being a CEO is a job. I have tasks. I do things for money. Right. Being a founder is a, is a statement of like what happened. Right. Like I founded a company. That's just the thing. Being an entrepreneur is a mental disorder. Right. It's the kind of thing that makes some people just like always didn't like you because of certain traits you had. Right. You're like usually you're like impatient. You interrupt people all the time. People will say no. And you immediately do that thing like contrarianism. Like, like these are all little pieces. But then when you're an entrepreneur, you're like doing that all the time. Right. Like you're like, I'm trying to do this thing. And a person in authority says, no, you can't do the thing. And so you do it anyway. And like, but that's a thing that you have to do constantly. And a lot of people like it's very hard for them to do it because you're basically embracing conflict, like little micro conflicts all the time. Right. But that's just like the ocean you swim in. Like you're like, I drink, I drink problems.  

Jon - 00:26:23: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Spot on. I mean, I think just like thinking about my weeks and days is like running towards conflict, like in just like embracing it. And that's the kind of like exactly that kind of like mental disorder that you kind of have to, you kind of got to have it because like you're going to be miserable if you can't embrace that.  

Ivan - 00:26:44: I'll give you an example. And this is something that for the listeners, when you're in charge of a company, one of the things that happens is, and one of the reasons why it's, it's hard is that you are the final stop for all the problems, right? There's problems happening. Some of them are easy. Some of them are hard. Some of them people want to solve. Some of them people don't want to solve, right? If there's an easy problem, somebody else will take it. If there's a hard problem, maybe they'll take it. If there's a really hard problem and nobody wants to touch it, it all goes to you. So all day, what you're doing is you are basically dealing with the worst stuff.  

Jon - 00:27:21: Yes. Yeah.  

Ivan - 00:27:23: And once in a while, so we are the kind of company that sells stuff and we deal with customers all the time. And once in a while, something bad will happen with a customer project and a customer will be like, I paid you all this money. And then like, I don't know what the data disappeared, something. And, and a lot of times it's their fault and you have to figure out delicate ways to tell them it's their fault. But a lot of times it's some, once in a while, like it's our fault. Like we effed up. And at that point, your whole team becomes little baby lambs.  

Jon - 00:27:52: Yes. Yes.  

Ivan - 00:27:53: We don't know what to do. Help us. Right. And you are the one. And, and they're all scared because they're like, fuck, we have to issue this like huge refund. We have to, this person is unhappy. What else is going to happen? And everybody wants to like retreat. And you're the guy who is like, oh yeah, we're going to flip this guy. And what you do is, cause if you like mess something up and then you overachieve and you overcompensate, that person actually becomes one of your biggest champions. And so we haven't always done this. There are sometimes we simply drop the ball and then fix it. But, but you, you get like a defiant, like the problem is ahead of you. Everyone's scared of it. You have to be as the leader of a team. You have to be the one who says, we're going to punch that problem in the face. Like everybody wants to run, but you're like, nope, we're going right at it. And everyone's looking at you. They're like, no, what are you doing? You're crazy. And you're like, that's what we're doing people. And everyone's like scared and angry and mad at you. And you're like, we're going to break through that wall. And you have no, I'm forcing you to do this. And, um, you have to have that kind of defiance because then people take also, they feed on you, right? They feed on your courage. Like if you're defiant, they're all going to be defiant. But you know, like in the normal world, if you're just like at work and somebody says, hey, do this thing. And you're like, oh yeah, I'm going to do the opposite. That's a bad thing. Like-  

Jon - 00:29:08: Yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:29:08: I think you're a jerk. And right. But when you're running a company, like that's the kind of thing where you have to be like, we will overcome and you just go. Right. And so that sort of energy is, I think to some extent is almost a requisite. Like, again, like not everybody is like that who runs successful companies, but I think it's much easier if you have that disorder.  

Jon - 00:29:31: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, spot on. Like I can think about experiences on my side too. I love the, when you flip what would seem to be a problem into an opportunity. And I mean, business is just problem solving. Like that's really all it is. And sometimes I'm just like, Oh, why is this like problem recurring? And then like, Oh, we can actually turn this into a business line. Like, because it's a signal. And also when it comes exactly what you said, like, I remember in the earliest days, one of our early customers was a Quest Diagnostics, Quest Diagnostics, and we outfitted their lab with like a whole robotics lab and everything broke at the same time. And, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:30:19: That's how it likes to break.  

Jon - 00:30:21: Yeah. I was like, huh?  

Ivan - 00:30:22: At the same time.  

Jon - 00:30:23: Yeah. I was like, what? And obviously, furious, like furious. And, you know, we always take great pride in, like, being not just like a equipment leasing company, but like, we're going to get you up when things go down. And God, it was a, it was stressful. The last thing you should be doing is like shirking away, and just like curling up and hiding. It's actually you have to like run the quicker and harder you embrace it.  

Ivan - 00:30:52: You got to rip the bandaid off.  

Jon - 00:30:53: The procrastination is actually just compounding the issue. So like, just for anyone who's listening out there, and you're thinking about some, if there are things that are in your startup right now that you're like, damn, I've been putting that off, like, you probably should jump on it. But like, we did it like we jumped on it, jumped on it quick. Went above and beyond and looped in. We basically were cashing in all our social capital to call in the favors and everything to get it done, got them up and running quicker than they anticipated. And when I say quicker, it took weeks to a month, but it was mission critical. And at that point in time, that was when we got Quest as a champion. And that's a game changer. They were furious, like originally furious. And I was like, oh, this company is not going to, we're not going to exist after this. But then after that, it's like they sing our praise. And I was like, oh, you just got to go above and beyond when something like that comes up.  

Ivan - 00:31:55: It's about expectations, right? Like it's about, you know, the secret to customer service is surprise.  

Jon - 00:32:01: Yes.  

Ivan - 00:32:01: When people, they expect that you effed up and you're going to try to weasel out of it or whatever. But those are great opportunities because then it gives you the ability to do something unexpected, which is surprise them with how good you're going to be. And those are for people listening, if you're in sales or if you're just generally running a startup, sometimes you get an email from a customer that something didn't work or isn't going how they want. And you can tell, you can tell they're like starting to prepare for a defense. Like they're almost like, it's like they're laying out evidence for a lawsuit almost.  

Jon - 00:32:35: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Ivan - 00:32:37: They're like itemizing things in the email. You should see that as a precious pearl because what they're telling you is that they're ripe for disruption, right? They set up this whole thing and they're like ready for a fight because they think that you're going to be like normal company and you're going to push back and be like, sorry, we, you know, you have, you know. 

Jon - 00:32:57: Yeah, this is on you.  

Ivan - 00:32:59: Blah, blah, blah. Right? We're not going to do it. And then you go at them and you go like, like, I completely understand what you're going. Like don't even address their bullet points. Just say, we're going to give you all of this for free. We're going to fix it. We're going to come out and do some other extra stuff. Just like surprise the hell out of them. And you're going to be embedded in their minds as the greatest thing they've ever experienced. And like when I see those little like messages and emails where people are starting to prepare for conflict, they're better than just like satisfied customers. Because, then they just, they bought a thing, they got what they wanted. They're happy. One day I'll try to get them to buy again. Right? But if somebody's kind of unhappy, ooh, that's a chance to completely turn them and like get so much more, so much more. And they're happy. You're happy. It's a win-win. Like you're not manipulating them. You're like, you're like helping them. They fall in love with you. And now you love them. They love you. Everybody loves each other. Everything's great. Like it's, it's such a win-win.  

Outro - 00:33:58: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Ivan Liachko. In part two, we'll follow Ivan through his time at Brandeis and Cornell, where he embraced lab life, navigated tight budgets, and began shaping the perspective that would guide him as a founder. He also shares lessons on resourcefulness, managing uncertainty, and why being underestimated can be a superpower in both science and business. If you're enjoying the series, follow the show, leave us a review, and share it with a friend. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.