NASA, Harvard & Biotech: A Journey to Investing at Menlo Ventures | Johnny Hu (Part 1/4)

Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup, from pre-seed to IPO, with your host, Jon Chee. 

Jon - 00:00:29: My guest today is Johnny Hu, Principal at Menlo Ventures. Johnny invests in biotech and life sciences companies with a focus on novel therapeutics and new technologies for improving medical outcomes. He has firsthand experience working at the bench on engineering new tools for the clinic. While completing his PhD, Johnny helped develop gene editing technologies that were licensed by companies such as Editas Medicine and Beam Therapeutics. He is passionate about partnering with founders at the earliest stages to translate groundbreaking science into new medicines. Prior to Menlo, Johnny was vice president at Longitude Capital, where he made several investments in early-stage biotech companies. He was a board observer at LEXEO Therapeutics, Endeavor Biomedicines, and Opna IO, and was on the investment team for Amunix Pharmaceuticals. Before Longitude, he was an associate at Omega Funds, where he worked on the firm's investment in Nuvation Bio. In addition to his deep experience as an investor, Johnny has a distinguished academic background. He earned his PhD in biological and biomedical sciences from Harvard University as an NSF graduate research fellow. He also holds an MPhil from the University of Cambridge as a Gates Cambridge scholar, and graduated with an AB in Chemical and Physical biology from Harvard. With deep experience in biotech investing, gene editing, and Life Sciences innovation, Johnny brings a unique perspective to translating groundbreaking science into real-world impact, making this a conversation you won't want to miss. Over the next four episodes, Johnny shares how his background in biology, engineering, and investing shaped his approach to company building in the life sciences. Throughout the series, he reflects on his academic journey, the rise of CRISPR, and how early mentorship guided his transition into venture capital. He also touches on his work at Menlo Ventures, the intersection of AI and biotech, and his vision for building enduring platforms that transform scientific innovation. Today, we're diving into Johnny's early years growing up on a university campus in the UK, the influence of his academic parents, and the curiosity that drew him to science from a young age. He shares stories of exploring physics labs as a kid, moving to Alabama to be near NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and the blend of environments that shaped his worldview. We'll also explore how his interests evolved during our undergrad, why he gravitated toward both chemical biology and economics, and how a mix of personal curiosity and historical context pulled him deeper into structural biology, tool development, and ultimately a research career that would span both sides of the Atlantic. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. Johnny, so good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast. 

Johnny - 00:02:48: Yeah, great to see you, Jon. This is awesome.

Jon - 00:02:50: Before we hit record, we're talking about how Seattle is so beautiful in the summers, or at least when it's hot. And I was thinking about the Pacific Northwest and just the absolute beauty that Seattle can be. And so I'm incredibly jealous that you're getting to enjoy the beautiful weather up there right now. But as we're getting prepared for this conversation, we thought it would be really fun to go all the way back to your earliest days, really just to learn about your journey, what got you into science, what got you into business, and frankly, what influenced your leadership philosophy and business philosophy. So take us all the way back. What was it like growing up? And tell us about your upbringing. 

Johnny - 00:03:32: Yeah, that's a good question. Like we moved around quite a lot when I was a kid, right? Like, you know, we moved to England when I was five. We grew up in a small little town called Coventry. There's a university. Both my parents were academics. And so there's a university called University of Warwick. One of the kind of leading research institutes, you know, that most people probably in the US, haven't heard of unless you're from England, right? But, you know, I kind of grew up in that environment, right, kind of on campus, right, you know. I remember going to labs, like, my dad was in a physics department, and there was all these, like, vacuum manifolds outside.  

Jon - 00:04:09: Oh, wow. 

Johnny - 00:04:10: Yeah, and so, like, at some point I was, like, asking my parents, like, they probably had given me some like, old coin or it was like you know, probably worthless. But to a kid, you're like, oh my God, like- 

Jon - 00:04:20: This is awesome. 

Johnny - 00:04:21: Yeah, right. 

Jon - 00:04:22: Yeah, yeah. This is awesome. 

Johnny - 00:04:24: I was like, how do you prevent this from rusting. 

Jon - 00:04:27: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:04:27: I don't know that's like, a common thought of like. 

Jon - 00:04:29: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:04:29: Like a seven-year-old or whatever. And then they're like, oh, just put it in there, you can vacuum out the air. right? It's like, okay, I don't think we actually did it. But. 

Jon - 00:04:37: Yeah, that's so cool. 

Johnny - 00:04:39: Yeah. And my mom like, switched to IT, and then so there's like, a soldering iron, in the room next door. Yeah, it's actually like, I mean, it's a wonderful place for a kid to grow up honestly, right. And like, you know, obviously in that kind of environment, you have a lot of people, who are very curious, and who just love teaching. Right. And then so, you couldn't ask for like, a better of their mentors, but, but certainly teachers, right. Yeah, in that environment.  

Jon - 00:05:08: That's awesome. And I guess like, kind of getting that early exposure to academia, and lab work. Was there any, I guess like, pressure from your parents, to get into the lab? Or was it kind of a thing like, do what you will. Like, this is what we do, and you can do it if you want to.  

Johnny - 00:05:22: Yeah. I mean, I think there's always a bit of a gentle nudge. 

Jon - 00:05:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 

Johnny - 00:05:28: And, you know, I don't know. It's funny you mention that, right? Because, like, our baby is, like, going to turn one in a few months, right? So, like, I'm thinking about my own parenting style now, right? And, like, you know, I think there's always something a little bit innate in wanting your kids to, you know, to shape them a little bit, mold them, and, you know, kind of grow up in a... But, you know, we'll see. Yeah, there's part of me that also, you know, wants her to explore something completely new and, like, you know, completely tangential to what I do, right? And so, yeah, it wasn't necessarily forceful. And like, frankly, I can tell you that, you know, what I do now, like, I think they... Both like don't quite understand. And also like, from a standpoint of like, that's your career that's your choice like- 

Jon - 00:06:19: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:06:19: You do you. Like, I think, they see some of the, things that come out of it, And they're very excited about it. Right. But I think, from a, from a day-to-day standpoint, they're like, oh well, Johnny's doing his, his thing. Right?  

Jon - 00:06:33: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I know that exact experience because like I've been doing Excedr for like, 15 years. And My parents were still like, what? What exactly is this? I was like, my dad's an engineer and my mom is in finance. So she kind of like gets it a little bit more. My dad is just like still the head scratching. He's like, I don't quite get what you're doing, but you seem to be okay. So I'm just going to let you do your thing. It was funny, you're talking about like soldering irons. And like my first interaction with the soldering iron was when I was younger. It was like, this was like back when like PlayStation 1 was still kind of like the cutting edge. There was like mod chips. So basically.

Johnny - 00:07:16: Oh, wow. You got really deep into it. 

Jon - 00:07:18: Yeah, I got really deep into it mostly, because I was like, now I'm starting to geek out and probably people think I'm going to I'm a nerd here. But like this was when like Final Fantasy VII was in Japan only at the time. And it wasn't released in the U.S., and I was like, I need to play this now. Like I need to play this now. And I just broke the PlayStation, because I didn't solder it properly. 

Johnny - 00:07:41: Oh, no.

Jon - 00:07:42: It was just the goop. They're just soldering goop like all over the PlayStation. My parents were just like, that's on you. 

Johnny - 00:07:48: That was your like Christmas gift that we're not rebuying for you basically. 

Jon - 00:07:52: That's exactly like you screwed that up. So you don't have a PlayStation anymore. Oh, my God. No. And my dad, being a structural engineer, does a lot of physics. And I think my dad was, probably saw that I was just not as good at physics and math as he was. So I could sense there's like probably a little bit of disappointment. He's like, God damn it. He's like, he's just like, all right, whatever, do what you want. Those are just some personal anecdotes. So you're growing up on campus and you're getting this early exposure to academia, lab work. And how long were you in the UK for? Was this all the way through high school? 

Johnny - 00:08:30: Yeah. So I think it was 12 when we moved to the U.S.. And so about seven years, basically. Yeah, and then when we moved to the U.S., again, like funny story, because like, people ask me where I grew up, and then I would say Alabama. And they're always like, oh, like, you know, what kind of brought you to Alabama? And then some people realize this, but like, there's a huge NASA base in Alabama. And so like, you know, all the like, original... Like Saturn V rockets and everything were designed there. Obviously, everyone knows Houston and Florida because, Florida is where they launch it. Since mission control, right? And but like a lot of the science and engineering, like even today, like happened in Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama. And so I wouldn't say I got any access there, obviously.  

Jon - 00:09:15: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on in.  

Johnny - 00:09:18: Yeah, government facility, right?  

Jon - 00:09:20: Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:09:20: There are still a lot of things about the city, right? That, like, I went to Virgil, I grew up in high school, right? Like, you know, that's, like, obviously named after the astronaut. You know, there was space camp, right? Like, you know, there's, like, a whole, like, U.S. Space and Rocket Center where you can go see, like, all the rockets. You can get, you know, you can do the, like, spinning thing, right?  

Jon - 00:09:40: Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:09:41: That, like, you know, throws you into, like, 5Gs. 

Jon - 00:09:43: Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:09:44: Right? So, like, you know, it's part, like... Amusement, part like obviously, you know, pride of the city, part like educational.  

Jon - 00:09:53: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:09:53: Right. And so, you know, it's and I think I don't know if this statistic is actually correct, but the statistics is like the most percentage of PhDs of any city. Right. Like probably like in the top five. Right.  

Jon - 00:10:09: Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.  

Johnny - 00:10:11: Right. I don't know. But like it's a unique place. 

Jon - 00:10:14: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:10:14: Given kind of the big employee or employer in town. Right. So. 

Jon - 00:10:19: Yeah. That makes. So where my parents live now, it's where Bio-Rad is headquartered. And like basically like the cities surrounding it are just it's just like all Bio-Rad. Everyone just has like a like cell biology, like graduate degree in the whole city. So every time I visit, I'm like. The heck like everything is that at Bio-Rad green it's just like everywhere.  

Johnny - 00:10:42: Everything's Bio-Rad green.  

Jon - 00:10:44: Yeah, yeah. Like, at least in Hercules it's like, it really is, you're just like, what the heck. Um, here's like, is this like town made for Bio-Rad? Um, but, um, anyway so like, so now, you're growing up kind of, kind of within the proximity of NASA. And as you're approaching graduation of like high school. Um, I know you ended up going to Harvard. Where was your mind at, what schools were you considering? And did you know you ultimately wanted to focus on, chem-bio and Econ? 

Johnny - 00:11:11: Yeah. I applied at Harvard early, and I got in. And so, I was like, okay, and I was like-  

Jon - 00:11:16: Just like you just shot, like you just shot the shots, one shot?  

Johnny - 00:11:20: They keep on changing it now. Right? So like, I don't know what it is. Like, I think, back then, it was early acceptance. Right. And so you can only apply to one. Right. And so I was like, so I was like, okay, well. I don't know, I, I'm always of the mind that like, given acceptance race and stuff. Right. All these processes are incredibly like, hard to predict. And you know, one of the deans told us once, and, and I believe this, right. He's like, hey, like we could, we could fill the Harvard class like two or three times. And like, not have any meaningful change, in like, you know, the statistics. Right. And so, you know, I always thought, I was incredibly fortunate frankly. But it did take a lot of pressure off, frankly, right? For senior year. 

Jon - 00:11:57: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know.  

Johnny - 00:12:00: The question of what it concentrated in, who knows, right? It's like you can run your life like 20 times and we'll get to this. In grad school, my advisor David had a tape of life project for evolution, right? Which is like, hey, if you ran evolution again and again and again, do you end up with the same outcome or do you veer off somewhere completely different, right? And I think you can replay that for your own life, and like, you know, we'll never get to run that experiment.  

Jon - 00:12:27: Yep.  

Johnny - 00:12:28: Right.  

Jon - 00:12:28: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:12:28: Like you know, is there some number in there, that like, this is not like a, I wouldn't say this is a rare occurrence. Right. But I'm sure there were other things pass along the way too that like, could very easily have, like you know, I like, I, you know, did programming back in high school. Right. And like you know, could I have ended up a CS major, at some point like, yeah, probably. Right. I'll tell you like Econ was like, always fascinating to me. Because, to me it's always like, the study of how people make decisions, right, fundamentally. And you can argue with the theory versus the kind of practice of it. But that's kind of why I did it. Because people always hear like, Econ and they're like, they kind of equate it to business.  

Jon - 00:13:11: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:13:12: But I think like for me, it was more of a like, well, this is like a really interesting topic of study. Right. And then the Chemical and Physical biology part, frankly, part of it was just like, I was just interested in science. I couldn't pick which one. 

Jon - 00:13:28: I guess I'll do just both. 

Johnny - 00:13:30: It was like, you got a little bit of chemistry, a little bit of physics, a little bit of biology. Cool. Great. Sign me up for that. Yeah.  

Jon - 00:13:37: I love that. It resonates with me. The interesting part of Econ is always like the behavioral Econ. It's like a really fascinating itch. And there's like another podcast I love listening to is the Odd Lots podcast.  

Johnny - 00:13:48: Yeah.

Jon - 00:13:49: And just like the weird kind of like, just like idiosyncratic aspects of the economy. It's like no one could have modeled that. Like nobody, like nobody. This like distant, like it's kind of that butterfly effect kind of thing where it's like, boom. Like, and then you have this ripple effect that you have no idea. Like impossible. You have to have, you have to have like a crystal ball. And I'm just like, do we actually know anything about the economy?  

Johnny - 00:14:14: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:14:16: That's what I come back to. 

Johnny - 00:14:17: It's a good question. And in some ways, it's all like, there's a micro and a macro of it, right? Which you can also play to biology, frankly, right? Which is like, there's the molecular biology, right? Which I always say there's always a bit of a little bias of how we view biology. Because a lot of us are trained in like molecular biology, you know, Molecular and Cellular biology, basically, right? And so there's always kind of a bottom up approach to thinking about biology. And then obviously there's like system biology and stuff now that's kind of meant to, you know, kind of push against that. But, you know, it's like the same thing in like economics and, you know, kind of what you're saying, right? Which is like, hey, like, you know, you can start understanding these like little systems like independently, right? Like how do you place it into the wider context of the world and like the economy and like, you know, countries and like all these like, yeah, it's fascinating, right? Which is like, and I think, but like part of the interesting thing, as you say, is like these niches.  

Jon - 00:15:18: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:15:19: Right. Which is like these niches where you're like, wow, like that's actually, and like, again, like same in biology, right? Which is like, you know, like how was, you know, again, like this is my PhD research was like, how is CRISPR found, right? It was like a viral defense system in like that yogurt factory was basically like, oh, like our yoga batches, like we want to make sure that they're not like, you know, the bacteria aren't dying.  

Jon - 00:15:45: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:15:45: And so like they isolated this system basically, right? And it turns out that's like. Really good genome engineering tool for like human therapeutics and for like research, right. For like you know like doing high throughput screening and things like that and so you're like how did you go from like, yogurt manufacturing to like medicine, right? And like that connection's like completely non-obvious, right? And so like all these things in life where like that happens, like, you know, obviously it's both like a very like interesting intellectual exercise, I call it, right? But also like has huge ramifications for like how society and how like technology develops, right?  

Jon - 00:16:28: Spot on. And like one of the kind of parallel or similar, I guess, kind of examples that I recently to continue on the Odd Lots podcast was one of the episodes where they were talking, or they had like a mini series on like on chickens. Oh, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:16:42: I don't think I listened to that one yet.  

Jon - 00:16:43: Check it out. It's really fascinating. Like it's all about chickens.  

Johnny - 00:16:47: Was it in the context of egg prices or just chickens?  

Jon - 00:16:50: Well, I think they strategically released that series kind of while the egg kind of stuff was going on. So people are like, oh, like maybe I should learn about the chicken industry and the chicken market and like macro and micro chickens. Um, and one of the really fascinating things was like the way that, so McDonald's was like really, this was pre-McNugget nugget, was like really struggling to price like their chicken products because of the volatility. And then Ray Dalio came in and basically like was like, I guess he helped McDonald's create this like chicken derivative, like financial instrument.  

Johnny - 00:17:28: Yeah. Wow.  

Jon - 00:17:29: For a specific part of the chicken.  

Johnny - 00:17:31: Right.  

Jon - 00:17:31: Because of this need. And that basically was like super, super innovative. The parallel here is kind of like, there's like this random need that created this derivative tool that then kind of stabilized chicken prices for the broader like economy. And then the chicken nugget was born. Not, you know, CRISPR and chicken nuggets are a little bit different, but there's like, you know, you kind of Econ, you can kind of like see these kind of weird corners. And there's like people, there's like these non-obvious ways that people design or use these tools that can unlock massive, like, you know, outcomes, broadly speaking. I was like, Ray Dalio invented the chicken nugget. Right.  

Johnny - 00:18:09: Exactly. Right. And it's like, and that, that creates like, you know, we talk about these niches, but like, you know, how many chicken nuggets are like bought by people around the world. Right. It's like, you know, it's like when you think about the scale of some of these things, it's, it's incredible. Right. So.  

Jon - 00:18:22: Yeah, it touches on so many, like it just like so expansive and you can't even like fathom it. Like our brains can't even fathom how many people like it touches upon. Um, but to bring it back to the, the, the biology aspect, when you were in undergrad, did you have a undergrad lab experience?  

Johnny - 00:18:38: I did, yeah. So I worked in a structural biology lab.  

Jon - 00:18:41: Cool.  

Johnny - 00:18:42: Yeah, and the advisor was David Jeruzalmi. It was a really interesting experience, actually. It was a small lab, which I liked. It got a lot of direct mentorship. Some of the people in the lab I'm still friends with, close friends to this day. And so it was both a good learning experience, exposure to early research, and then also just structural biology. It's interesting, right? Because now, like... In many ways, structural biology is so fundamental to drug design and drug development. And now all the AI stuff too now, right? Obviously with AlphaFold and structure prediction and things like that. All that work is built on the back of like at least 50 years of like, you know, painstaking work by these like structural biologists, right. Who like set up these like screen, like literally just like, you know, we used to have a room and, and, you know, I don't know how many people realize how like these like X-ray crystallography.  

Jon - 00:19:40: I was about to say the lattices. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:19:43: It's just like you, it's cause it's, again, it's this as much of an art as a science. I remember watching this documentary once and it was like, So you're trying to form these like crystals, right? You're like trying to get these proteins to pack in a way that forms these crystals, basically. And then you go and you get because, you have all these repeating structures that allows you to get the structure. And so, you know, you set these trays, basically, of all these different conditions, because every protein crystallizes slightly differently and you don't know how it'll crystallize. And you would think that it's some kind of like X by Y by Z or maybe there's other variables, right? But like it turns out there's just like infinite variables.  

Jon - 00:20:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:20:26: Like time, temperature, blah, blah, blah. And I remember once there was this documentary and I forgot which group it was now, but like they solved. The crystal structure and they weren't sure like why it crystallized in that condition and it turns out someone spilt some like pickle juice or something into that well. I guess pickle juice is pretty acidic. And so like... I guess that was the reason why it crystallized. And so how do you a priori? And now, obviously, there's Cryo-EM. I mean, I'm sure there's much better ways of. Setting up crystal trays than when I was doing it. 

Jon - 00:21:07: Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:21:08: But at the time, it was just like, you just set up these things. And now it's like roboticized, right? Because you can just take the images and you can look on your computer. Back then, it was like literally going to the basement, taking these off the shelf. Looking at the microscope and being like, oh, like crystal, no crystal, crystal, no crystal. And it's obviously like 99% of a crystal. And when we did get a crystal, it was like, most of the time it was like a salt crystal and not the thing that you were trying to crystallize. There's just so much like tenacity, I guess I call it.  

Jon - 00:21:42: Yeah. And brute force. It's just like, you got to brute force it. Like, that's another thing that my parents, they're like, oh yeah, you guys are like working in the future. Like you guys have like, everything is like a simulation. Like they're thinking about just like super sci-fi future. And I'm like, it didn't used to be like that. Like we're just on the cusp of that. Like exactly what you're describing. I just remember at Berkeley, there was always like the structural folks always beefing with the comp bio folks. And there's always this like, the only way to determine the structure is do crystallography. Screw your computer. Like screw you guys. Like we, we got to run it. And all the comp bio people are like, whatever, man. Like we're just going to like simmers.  

Johnny - 00:22:21: We can predict it now. Yeah.  

Jon - 00:22:24: And like, I think people forget of just like how much like elbow grease went behind all of this is exactly what you're describing. And like, it really is just like not glamorous.  

Johnny - 00:22:34: You just build the data set, right? Like, you know, like the Protein Data Bank, like that's what enabled all the AlphaFold, you know, and AlphaFold like models nowadays. Right. And like, that's all Protein Data Bank. And like, again, like that's just over 50 years of work of like people in labs solving these crystals. Right.  

Jon - 00:22:53: Yeah. And that like specific, like that timeframe, I think people just are impatient. Like we will, like we need results now. It's like, yo, do you realize that this was like decades in the making? Like, and for Life Sciences, particularly it's like the time scales are different here. Like, obviously we're doing everything we can. Hopefully it's not the progress of like, it is only in 50 year blocks, but like, it's like, we hope, we hope we can like shorten that. But I think sometimes good things take time really. And especially with the tooling. Now we can kind of like accelerate that.  

Johnny - 00:23:35: But it's also back to what we talked about. Like, in some ways you never know. I mean, I think people obviously knew that the Protein Data base was like useful. Right. Like in itself, like each individual structure is obviously useful. Right. But like aggregating all that data is also like people always knew that that would be useful. Right. But like, who could have thought that like, it would have enabled like all the AI kind of protein prediction stuff now? Like, you know, I don't think in the in the 80s or like, and, you know, frankly, like when I was in school, I think people always thought of like protein structure prediction as like, and maybe other people were just more like forward thinking. But I think there was certainly a debate about whether it was like solvable, period.  

Jon - 00:24:19: Yeah. Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:24:20: Because the free energy calculations are just on a scale that's very hard. They're just impossible. Unless we just had different computers. So would you need quantum?  

Jon - 00:24:33: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:24:35: It turns out that having that database basically allows you to train these models. And obviously enabled by a lot of the other work that people have done in just machine learning. And this is, again, the thing. There's so much convergence that needs to happen for any one of these technologies to actually both come into existence and also be useful, I guess I'd say.  

Jon - 00:25:00: Yeah, absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:25:01: Because, there's a lot of, even with the genome engineering stuff, there's so much of like, well, CRISPR came along. But it was also like all the enablement of understanding disease biology. If we didn't know the cause of these monogenic diseases or the kind of genetic basis of the disease, which obviously we're still learning a lot of, there'd be no application to actually apply it on. And so there's just so much convergence of different things that enables ultimately a field to take off.  

Jon - 00:25:35: Absolutely. And I think that's why I'm like, with everything going on right now with like funding getting cut, I'm like, this is the stuff that needs to get funded. Like we need to be doing like research across the board. And it's kind of like, you know, there's a lot like it reminds me of like the Human Genome Project. Like you're talking about a priority. Do we know if this is going to be like, are we going to solve biology with this? There's hopes that it would.  

Johnny - 00:25:56: Right.  

Jon - 00:25:56: Right. But sometimes it's not the way it is. But, you know, again, a priority. Like, we don't know if the Protein Data base is going to, you know, result in this massive kind of like explosion, Cambrian explosion. But we have a good, we have a sneaking suspicion that it could be a good thing to do and could unlock things. But again, it's this crystal ball. Like you just don't know, but you have a hunch. And like you have to pursue those like hunches and like dive in because like, again, just like CRISPR, it's kind of like, unless you are like poking around and rummaging around and like just like discovering things and investigating things, you're just never going to be able to like orthogonally like connect these dots. Which is like, I don't know. I'm, it's super cool. Like, I think like that's why biology, at least for me, is just like, yeah, like you can, you got to bring in like everyone in order to get, you know, something across the line. So I'm jealous that that lab sounds super fun and cool at Harvard. Was this when you got the spark? You're like, I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to do a bunch of lab work going forward. Was that when you found the spark?  

Johnny - 00:27:01: Yeah. I mean, the pursuit of new knowledge is always interesting to me. Right. And it's like, and you're just like pushing the olive and like trying to learn something that like no one's ever. Looked at before, right? And so then, you know, and the process of it, right? Which I think people like, you know, kind of, you think about like how new knowledge is created, right? And it's like non, it's always like non-trivial and it's kind of what we're talking about. Like it is like, you know, very difficult many times, right? And so like from there, like I went to Janelia Farm for a summer, right? This is like the Howard Hughes Medical Institute started a very focused effort on mapping the fruit fly brain basically. Like the connectomics, right? Like mapping all the neurons, how they connect. And then all the necessary tools, kind of as we're saying for that, right? So I remember there was a lab that was just focused on developing like brighter GFP, like protein.  

Jon - 00:27:57: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:27:58: And like other colors, right? Because like, you know, if you're going to map the brain and you want to light it up, obviously, right? And you want to see. And so then like, you know, again, like very non-trivial work, frankly, right? Of like, hey, like these dyes, like, you know, they work, you turn it on, they work for a while, then they bleach. Right. And so then you lose the intensity. Right. And then like you need all these different colors because then you can then you can separate out different structures. You know, so like there's just a very focused effort on that. Right. And so like all these like different components that you're trying to bring together for like this, like very concerted effort of like understanding the brain of at least a single organism so that you can start building higher and higher level models of like how we process information and thought. And come up with new ideas. Right. And so Janela was a really cool place, honestly, because it's like it's interesting. Like it's in the suburbs. The structure is like beautiful. It's like laid into the hill, basically. Cool.  

Jon - 00:28:59: Right.  

Johnny - 00:28:59: And so it's like built into the hill. And, you know, whether on purpose or not, like it was like a very productive summer, I guess.  

Jon - 00:29:07: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:29:08: We didn't have a like very few of us had a car. I think one person was local.  

Jon - 00:29:12: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:29:13: And so they had a car. Right. And like as soon as you exited campus, it was like I think it was like a six lane highway. And so like some of us had to like run across the highway to get to the like we always like told stories of like running across the highway to get to the nearest supermarket.  

Jon - 00:29:30: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:29:30: We're getting our groceries there. Right. But like, you know, otherwise, like it was just very hard to get off campus. I was like-  

Jon - 00:29:39: Maybe that was by design. They're just like, I'm gonna make these like, undergrads like, there's literally nothing else you can do.  

Johnny - 00:29:39: They tried, they gave us like a, like a, go, go out and have like, you know, fun stipend.  

Jon - 00:29:39: Yeah, yeah. What are we going to do with this? It's a highway right there. Like, we can't get anywhere, That's funny.  

Johnny - 00:29:39: We had to rely on the one car.  

Jon - 00:29:49: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure your friend loved that. I think that, you know, something that kind of sticks out to me is just like does not taking for granted what we've been bestowed. Like it's kind of you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Right. And like, you know, a colleague of mine was just talking about it. Yeah. Like mouth pipetting was a thing, you know, like you guys with your fancy like robotic pipettes. We did it with our mouth. And you're like, yeah, my God. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, stuff that shouldn't be going in your mouth like we're using our mouth. So it's kind of this thing is like how you kind of got to like take inventory of like all like there's a lot to be excited about. And we're at like a very interesting point where we got the tools, way more tools than we did prior. So it's like super exciting to, you know, and even just like this, just getting GFP a bit brighter. So, yeah, like there was a time when it wasn't like that. Like, you know, so it's kind of you got to be kind of grateful for it, too. And so, you know, after this summer, I believe around this time you also did a stint at Genentech. Was this like kind of in close proximity?  

Johnny - 00:31:07: Genentech was right after I graduated. Got it. I accepted to go to Cambridge. I had this summer. I think most kids would have like, travel around the world, which like, you know, it's certainly not a bad plan. Right.  

Jon - 00:31:19: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:31:21: I was like, well, I'd worked only in academic labs. What's it like to work in industry, basically? It was like, spend a summer at Genentech. And it's funny, because I remember the thing they told me was like, Johnny, you're going to be so spoiled. Because Genentech, frankly, has a lot of resources. And that is hugely enabling for the research and the development that they do. And cancer metabolism. All cancer drugs are just looking for that therapeutic window, right? It's like, how do you kill... Cancer cells while sparing healthy cells, basically, right? And so, you know, there was this... And, you know, it's an old idea, but it's one that kind of, you know, ebbs and flows and comes back. And, you know, there's always new angles to it, right? Which is basically how do you take advantage of, like, the difference in cellular metabolism in cancer versus normal cells? And, you know, just the growth rate of cancer, right? And how do you target that specifically to, you know, hopefully get rid of cancer cells, right? And so, yeah, it was a great summer. It was a lot of smart people, right?  

Jon - 00:32:27: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Johnny - 00:32:29: And then Genentech, like, has this summer concert series that they do, which was, like, I didn't realize there was, like, multiple artists. 

Jon - 00:32:36: It was, like, a proper music festival. 

Johnny - 00:32:39: I, like, left after the first one. 

Jon - 00:32:41: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Johnny - 00:32:42: I think, I forgot who it was. I think it was, like, I think Sheryl Crow was first and then Maroon 5 was next. And so, that's rad. And it was in like, you know, the AT&T, now it's Oracle Park, right? 

Jon - 00:32:57: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:32:58: And I think Genentech did something that was like very thoughtful and like they had the story of patients on campus. And that was always like a key focus for the company. Right. As they thought about like, you know, what it is they're developing. Which, obviously like, you want to do that thoughtfully. But like, I, I think, the fact that you know, you could see, both the impact of, you know, the existing drugs, but like, also what you're trying to, hopefully develop for. Like that was actually like, you know, a good reminder. I guess at the very least. Right. 

Jon - 00:33:33: Yeah. It's like front and center. It's kind of like, let's not forget like, all this hard-ass work that we're doing, is for the benefit of the patients who need it. I can imagine that like, you know, it's a good reminder, and gets you out of bed every day. Like fired up, which is super cool. Um, I guess how would you compare just like, academic lab, experience versus, like your first industry experience. Did you like one more than the other, or was it or you're just like, they're just different. 

Johnny - 00:33:57: It's just, I mean, it's so different. Right. And people always ask like, because, there are obviously like large, swath-like statements you can make about things. Right. But, there's so much like, in the individual lab, and people, like even in the person next to you that you're working with.  

Jon - 00:34:12: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:34:12: Right. And like that, that like changes your experience completely. Right. And so like, I always tell like you know, when people ask for like, career advice and stuff nowadays, always tell them like, I can give you like large pronouncements of like, well this is what it's like here, and this and then, that's. But also there's just like, at the end of the day like, you're working with people. 

Jon - 00:34:30: Yep. Yep.  

Johnny - 00:34:31: And like, that's going to be the biggest thing that determines whether you have a good or bad experience. Right. If you like the people that you're working with, and like you know, how that affects your day-to-day. right. And so, like you know, as long as you like, like the people around you, like that's that's frankly like, most of the joy if you will. Right. And so. 

Jon - 00:34:50: Spot on I, I couldn't agree more. I think it's like highly, exactly what you're describing is like highly situational. And like, I guess to add to that, is like working with people, that you enjoy. And also working on a problem that you find fascinating. 

Johnny - 00:35:03: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:35:03: If you like marry those two. Oh, this is like awesome, it's just like freaking awesome. Whatever industry you might be in, whatever lab you might be in, if you can find those two, then I think you kind of have like that, the one plus one equals big number, more than two, um, situation. And it's funny like, we're talking about like Genentech, and kind of like, having the the patient front and center, and that kind of you know, having the, you know the music festival I did not know about. Which is which is awesome. Um, but, it just reminded me, of the colleague that I was alluding to, about the mouth pipetting. He was actually, um, employee 13 at Genentech. 

Johnny - 00:35:37: Oh wow. 

Jon - 00:35:38: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously he's one of my co-workers dads. And he talks about it all the time, he's like, oh yeah, we were broke, like he was. 

Johnny - 00:35:46: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:35:46: In the 70s, like in the 70s. We were in the warehouse mouth pipetting. Like, you know, he's like, I always love that kind of like anecdote. is because, people think, that like, you see it now it's like. Yeah. Music festival freaking like, you know, we're it's like it's kind of overnight success. You're just like yeah this is like are this like hitting grand slams, right. No. They were super scrappy, in the very beginning. And like they had to do it the hard way. Sometimes you got to do it the hard way, and do the the crystallography. Like and just like do trays over and over again. 

Johnny - 00:36:17: I mean, that's the thing about startups, right? Which is like every startup starts the journey at zero, basically, right? And you're just like building from scratch. And, you know, we're doing one now and kind of, you know, where I'm helping lead the effort. And like there's so many little things that you have to do at the beginning. Now, like, frankly, like it's even different than when Genentech got started. Because now there's a whole like ecosystem. 

Jon - 00:36:42: Yeah, infrastructure.  

Johnny - 00:36:44: Infrastructure, exactly, right? That like services, like, you know, startup and, you know, being, you know, in Silicon Valley, you understand, like, you know, the billboards that you see along the 101, right? Like that's all in service. It's all like AI or like startups, right? And so like, yeah. But yeah, back in the 70s, gosh, like I don't, you know. You probably ran your business registration down to like, The local office, and like you know, I don't even like, setting up payrolls probably like-  

Jon - 00:37:14: Way harder. 

Johnny - 00:37:16: Right. Yeah, like, yeah. 

Jon - 00:37:18: Way harder.  

Johnny - 00:37:19: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:37:19: Just like those small little things now, it's like again, just like Gusto and Rippling. it's like, you can just like, type it in your computer and your payroll is taken care of. But like, before that, it was way harder, like way, way harder. But I think it's an exciting time for startups, within like what is available to us right now. Is just like, all those little things are not as like, you don't have to spend an exorbitant amount of time on them anymore. And like even just like thinking about like lab space, like I just remember. When it's just like, oh, yeah, like incubators weren't really a thing yet. So you need to sign up for like a massive lease at a minimum 10 year commit. And dude, I don't know if we're going to be around for 10 years and we don't have enough money to do this. And now you can just be like, hey, I actually just like fractionally need half a bench. And then you're like, oh, awesome. I can like actually not like spend my whole like whatever round you might or whatever friends or family, whatever it may be. To like, just like go out the door. So I was like, I think despite the doom and gloom, is it still a great time to start a company? I don't think there's like been a better time to start a company because exactly what we're describing is like there is infrastructure for it now versus before you're like not sign up for the 10 year lease. Pipe that with your mouth. And we're now having to, you know, payroll manually on pieces of paper. 

Johnny - 00:38:38: Yeah, that's incredible, right? Every startup is like, oh, well, like one day we want to be the next Genentech or like Gilead's the one that because, Gilead started from Menlo, actually. So one of the Menlo associates, Started it like in the 80s and, you know, was a CEO for the first 20 years. And like, it's just an incredible story. Right. But yeah, most of the other big farmers are like very old legacy companies. Right. And but like the few that have started like in the last century, at least. 

Jon - 00:39:08: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:39:09: It's like, it's incredible to hear like how, you know, kind of your friend's story. 

Jon - 00:39:14: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:39:14: It's the same founding story of like Apple or it was like literally in the garage. Right. 

Jon - 00:39:18: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:39:19: It's like, and to like go from that to like the kind of powerhouse where everyone's like, Hey, like I want to be the next this. It's just that incremental, like, you know, you just go day by day. You're like this day, I'm going to do this a little bit better. This day I'm going to get this to work. And like, you know, eventually a few years down the line, you're like, wow, like, you know, I'm entering the clinic hopefully. And you're like, wow. Like, you know, a few years later, you're like, I have my first drug. Right. Like my first thing that's going to like actually go, you know, it's been in patience and it's shown it's worked. So now it's like, I can actually treat more people.  

Jon - 00:39:52: Yep. 

Johnny - 00:39:53: To like start from like literally nothing. Right. It was like, that's actually like the odds of that happening are just like so miraculous.  

Jon - 00:40:02: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:40:02: Right. 

Jon - 00:40:03: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:40:03: Like for this to work at all, you're just like, that's, that's amazing. That's, that's great that like, there's like kind of like the infrastructure. Right. And frankly, like the capital too. Right, to like, you know, to build this. And the people willing to dedicate their careers in many ways at risk, right? 

Jon - 00:40:22: Yep. 

Johnny - 00:40:22: And to push this forward. And on the other side, the patients are willing to try it, basically, right? Who are willing to sign up for these trials, the doctors, all the infrastructure in this ecosystem. Right, that enables something like this to work and to, you know, ultimately build these, like, generational companies that hopefully will, you know, produce more valuable medicines, right, so. 

Jon - 00:40:44: Absolutely. And I think something that really stood out to me is just like, people are just like hoping to just like hit the Grand Slam, like super quick. But really, what that Grand Slam is, is actually just a culmination of just like chopping wood consistently. Right? But it's like, that's the thing. It's just like, I talked to a lot of folks who are like, you know, like, they're like, okay, like, you know, we see Excedr, like Excedr, you know, you guys are kind of like been around for a while. Like, what's the secret? I was like, there is no secret. Like, there is no secret. It is chopping wood. Chopping a lot of wood for a long time. You just don't see it. Like, you just don't see the wood chopping. And I think, you know, to get to, and that's like the power of compounding, right? It's just like, it feels flat until it's not flat. And then it just like, everything just like is accretive and just like builds on each other. So like, a lot of this stuff is not really glamorous. It's like, just like, but you got to do it like, you know, when you're just like two people, like if you're like, you know, two people, you got to do all this stuff. And like, a lot of this stuff is probably not exactly what you signed up for. But it's like, again, like you said, just like day by day, just like knocking it down, being a little bit better every day. 

Johnny - 00:41:51: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:41:52: And then you surprise yourself, honestly.  

Johnny - 00:41:55: You're trying to go faster than your next person, right? You're trying to like, you know, like, it's a lot of work. 

Jon - 00:42:02: Yo, for sure. 

Johnny - 00:42:03: That's not overnight.  

Jon - 00:42:04: Yeah, it's not overnight.

Outro - 00:42:08: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Johnny Hu. In part two, we'll follow Johnny from Genentech to Cambridge and back to Harvard, where his journey in tool building, gene editing, and venture capital begins to take shape. He talks about finding his footing in the Boston biotech ecosystem, what it was like working alongside pioneers in genome editing, and the surprising skills that shaped his approach to investing in early stage startups. If you're enjoying the series, follow the show, leave us a review, and share it with a friend. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the Life Sciences sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.