The Shelf Life of Innovation: CRISPR, Biotech Culture & Winning Teams | Johnny Hu (Part 2/4)

Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup, from pre-seed to IPO, with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, Johnny Hu shared stories about growing up on a university campus in the UK, how an early exposure to lab environments shaped his curiosity, and how his academic and cultural experiences led him towards both science and economics. If you missed it, be sure to check out part one. In part two, Johnny reflects on his time at Genentech, the transition to graduate studies at Cambridge, and how working in Neuroscience labs sparked a deeper interest in tool development and systems thinking. He also talks about the rise of CRISPR, navigating the early days of gene editing research, and how exploring the Boston biotech ecosystem gave him a front row seat to the intersection of science, startups, and venture capital.  

Johnny - 00:01:23: The UK ecosystem is, I think, the academic ecosystem is very interesting, right? Because, you know, people like to think of these old US universities as old, but, like, you know, UK is, like, a different timescale, right? 

Jon - 00:01:34: Yeah. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:01:35: And so, you know, there's a lot of, like, tradition. There's a lot of institution, like, built into it. There's, like, little quirks sometimes, right? Like, I was in, like, PDN, right, was the department I was in, which is, like, was it Physiology, Development, and Neuroscience? Like three things that you traditionally wouldn't see together at university, right? But like, just like, and I, I frankly couldn't tell you like what in the history led them, but like there was some historical kind of event that led these three things to be the things that came together. But it was also like, I think you spend a lot more time like thinking, if you will.  

Jon - 00:02:13: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:02:16: And some of it's like built in, right? You're like, oh, well, like this time and that time. But it's also like, I think US science is in some ways like, sometimes you're collecting the data. And in the UK, it's like, well, like, what data can we collect? Because, like, you know, sometimes is it A or is it B? Because, like, sometimes you can't do A and B. And sometimes you can. So then like, but then what's the value of having A and B, right? And maybe that's because like, you know, you have so much like historical context around you.  

Jon - 00:02:45: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:02:45: Right. And like even the university system in many ways, like it's built to... Foster a lot of like informal, like there's long dinners, right? And you're like, well, like that's, that's kind of nice, but it's also like a chance to like sit down with people and just have a conversation. Right. And sometimes it's about, you know, the day that you had today, sometimes about science, sometimes it's about latest happening somewhere else. Right. So like, but it does lead to a lot of like cross pollination and just like a lot of intentionality in the way that science is, is done there.  

Jon - 00:03:20: Yep.  

Johnny - 00:03:21: And so it's an interesting experience. And like, but for me, I think it's also like the realization that, and you know, part of it's just like what I'm gravitate to. Right. I was like, again, like the one that it's like, There's no right or wrong kind of answer to any of this, right? But it's also what you like personally. And so the thing that I kind of took away from that was I want to do more tool building, frankly. Neuroscience itself, that's the field I was working in. Neuroscience itself is a very interesting field, but I want to do more tool building. I wanted to hopefully build some of the tools that allowed us to answer some of the questions that we couldn't answer today. That that's a little bit more of an engineering discipline, right? Which will still appeal to me. And you know, a little bit more tinkering, I guess.  

Jon - 00:04:10: I want to do less crystallography trays and let's see if we can make this more efficient. Let's make this way more efficient. But something that really stood out to me about the kind of the room to think and talk and kind of, I actually think that at least I can imagine, I haven't done grad school in the UK. So I, you know, but. In the US, it probably would benefit us to just like stop for a moment. And just to think it through and have these discussions. It's kind of like I always think about it as, for me, this is now speaking from my personal experience, it's kind of like, you know, your shower thoughts, when you're like-  

Johnny - 00:04:46: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:04:46: Like, you're just, right. You're just like, I've been grinding, super hard, Just on the whole time. And then for a moment, you're not, you're- Because you have to take a shower, and then there's like always you just like, you feel like lightning strikes. And you're like, oh shit. Like, all of this like wood chopping, like how do we synthesize this, and make these connections. And I always like rush out, I'm just like, trying to like jot these things down. Or it's kind of like, when for musicians where like, they're like inspiration will strike, when they're like, out of the studio. And then they're like, I got like, whatever I gotta like, put a voice memo, and just like hum this, whatever. You know, this like progression, because it just like struck me, that this is gonna be it. Because I think, you know, this is not just like even for speaking for research, it's just like, just like kind of like, startup kind of energy, is just like you got to be on 24/7. Like there is no there is no moment to think, just you got to be on. It's kind of like, I know, I can't even think about like sports, right? Like, I used to play Lacrosse, now I'm no longer physically fit to play Lacrosse, so I rock, I would get obliterated if I went to go play Lacrosse, right now. But rock climbing far more sustainable, but it's the same thing, it's kind of like, if you are rock climbing, and you are just like non-stop rock climbing, eventually your your ligaments and your muscles will just break. You kind of have to like, give yourself a moment of pause, and like actually take some rest, for like all of this, like grind, to like actually kind of firm up, and then you come back and you can solve the rock climbing problem. I, I see parallels like, you know, in research like, yeah, we can be just collecting data the whole time. But perhaps, like, for but maybe, but maybe, we can take some inspo from that, and just like take a moment, and have these converse like, and again like, I'd like the kind of, I think someone a buddy of mine was I think, he was saying at Oxford's like, yeah. The pub culture in the UK, is like, it's not just like American, where you go to a pub and get hammered. It's kind of like no- 

 Johnny - 00:06:43: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:06:44: Cool, right? You're like, we're just here to talk, and like whatever it may be, and kind of interesting things come of it. So, that's that's really cool to hear that-  

Johnny - 00:06:51: And you're just surrounded by so much history, right? Which is like, that's the cool thing, right? Which is like, you know, you're like, oh, well, like... What is the like local pub in Cambridge, right? Which is like, oh, like it's, it's The Eagle. Oh wow. Like, it's like, what happened there, right? Oh, like that's where Watson and Crick hung out. It's like-  

Jon - 00:07:10: Yeah, it's so crazy. It's so crazy. Like the history is so crazy. And obviously, you know, being in America, you just like forget. It is a market difference in terms of like the timelines here. So, but really fascinating. And so, you know, you're wrapping up your, you know, your time in Cambridge. When did you know it was time to go back to Harvard? And-  

Johnny - 00:07:33: I had deferred my grad school. So I kind of knew, I was going to come back.  

Jon - 00:07:36: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. 

Johnny - 00:07:38: But yeah, it was, it was interesting time when I came back. Right. And so like, you know, I came back, explored a few different labs that were like, you know, all really interesting. Right. And it happened on like gene editing a little bit, I don't know, accidentally maybe like, so yeah, back to the tools thing, right. I was like, well, like what else can we do? Right. And so like, I was working in a, in a DNA origami lab for a while, well, two actually for a while, which is like, and I don't know if DNA origami like means anything to, you know, but it is the idea of like using, you know, DNA you think of as a information carrier, right? Which it is. The ability to pair it is known, right? So like A, T, and C, and G, right? And so like, you can actually think about using it as like kind of Legos, basically, right? You can like staple it together, right? You can like form these like structures. And so people have like used it like as the material for building like, you know, all sorts of things, right? Like, you know, you can like build like a tiny little, obviously microscopic, right? But like smiley face. Or letters and numbers and things like that. And you can program. And it's actually kind of incredible, because you can design it on the computer, and then you can just send it off, and they make it for you. You come back, you pipette it into the wells, and it just kind of self-assembles. And then you can do other things. You can technically use it as a language, if you will. You can do math with it. You can say, well, when this strand pairs with this strand, then it leads to this downstream thing happening. And you can build a logic into it. And so you can build a lot of things with it. This is really interesting. But actually, one of the people in the lab was, working on CRISPR, basically, like as it was coming online. It was unfortunate for him because like there were a lot of people working on CRISPR as it was coming online.  

Jon - 00:09:32: Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:09:33: And so he kept on getting, his project kept on getting scooped. But I was next to George Church's lab. I was talking to David Liu. And eventually, I did a rotation in both. And just started playing around with these genome editing tools. And I think even then, it was already taking off to the point where you're like, this is going to be big. But it was also taking off to the point where you're like, oh, wow, a lot of things are being done already. You know, this happens, obviously, with a lot of like, you see it with AI right now, obviously, right? Which is like, when you get that initial surge, basically, of like, hey, someone came out with some seminal thing. You know this is going to work. And then you get a big burst of energy at the beginning. And you're like, wow, all these things came out of that within the next few months, basically. And so people started using it for activators, for repressors. Right? Like, people started, like, you know, fusing all sorts of different things. Right? And then you started, like, characterizing it a lot. Right? Which is like, oh, what's the off-target? What's the on-target rate? And so, like, it was just an incredible time. And frankly, like, also stressful.  

Jon - 00:10:52: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:10:53: You're like, oh my God, it's like, what's coming, right?  

Jon - 00:10:56: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:10:57: One of my rotation mentors at the time told me something that was, always stuck with me. Because, if you want to be a technology developer, you've got to think about this on some level. He's like, look, every technology has a shelf life. It's just true, right? And so, like, is that shelf life, like, years? Is it months? Is it weeks? Is it days? You know, is it, like, actually, like, it's already been surpassed.  

Jon - 00:11:21: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:11:22: And so, like, you got to decide, you know, and it's always a little bit of a prediction, obviously, right? Because you don't know how things are going to play out. But, like, if you can already see that the shelf life is going to be, like, very short, like, should you work on it?  

Jon - 00:11:35: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:11:35: Right? And so, like, that's one of the things that kind of always stuck with me, right? Which is, like, if you look at new technologies, like, you always have to think a little bit, right? Of, like, when is this going to get surpassed by how much, like, how quickly, right? Because, like, it's just the nature of it, right? Like, you know, my PhD project that I did then, like, that's, probably do much faster. Like, I know I can do much faster now. Right? And like, you know, sometimes I'm always like, well, that's a little sad. But on the other level, like, that's just... That's progress, right? That's great. Like, that's awesome that, like, you know, you shouldn't take as long as what it took me years ago to do, right? And so that's just a rate of progress.  

Jon - 00:12:15: Absolutely. And I mean, hold on, let me just back up. Were you already thinking about this as you're doing rotations for your PhD?  

Johnny - 00:12:22: Like it was brought up to me, right? I was like, yeah, I should think about it. There's a lot of like thoughtful people.  

Jon - 00:12:29: I was like, wow, because like. Me and my buddies, I don't know. This is fun and a good project to work on. I wish someone told me that because they're definitely like, well, but all that to be said, even just going through this lab experience and PhDs, even at the end of the day, if you get the prediction wrong, there's so many other kind of, just critical thinking. You develop a lot as a person and as a thinker, even if you bet on the wrong horse. You're not going to land it. Not everyone's going to land it perfectly, but I think that's something really, I think anyone who's thinking about going to grad school or just thinking about that, it's just like, exactly. For all the listeners out there, you now have that advice. Just realize that everything has this shelf life and is that what you want to be hitching your wagon on.  

Johnny - 00:13:23: And some things have shelf life for centuries.  

Jon - 00:13:25: Yeah, exactly.  

Johnny - 00:13:26: I'm one of those.  

Jon - 00:13:28: Easy peasy. It's like, yeah, do that. It was funny because something that stood out to me is you're talking about origami. So it's probably because I grew up in Berkeley. So a lot of my friends, they're academics as well. One of my friend's father is a bear biologist at Berkeley, but also a master origami.  

Johnny - 00:13:50: Oh, cool. Yeah, paper.  

Jon - 00:13:52: Yeah, paper. And he would be brought on as consultants. This is pre-AI, but because he was so good at origami, like big pharma and academia would bring him as a consultant to do exactly what you're describing. But he's like, hey, this is how it would fold properly. And for protein as well. Bernie Peyton. Anyways, I think he might have retired. But wow.  

Johnny - 00:14:18: He developed an intuition for folding, basically.  

Jon - 00:14:22: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:14:22: So applied like across different. Wow. 

Jon - 00:14:26: Yeah. From actual because his passion outside of bear biology was origami.  

Johnny - 00:14:32: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:14:32: And so they would bring him in for origami, like folding help.  

Johnny - 00:14:36: Um. Okay.  

Jon - 00:14:37: Yeah. isn't that crazy, but it's like, again, super, super orthogonal. It's like who would have known, he's like, no, I just like, he's like, I like origami.  

Johnny - 00:14:46: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:14:48: And they're, hey, there's like applications over here, that we would love your input on. Fantastic, like I get to kind of like, scratch my itch, I love origami.  

Johnny - 00:14:56: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:14:58: So, anyways-  

Johnny - 00:14:59: I want to see that seminar. Yeah. that's fascinating. Yeah.  

Jon - 00:15:01: Super fascinating. Um, I just grew up, I was like, how did these worlds, kind of like, connect? This is crazy. And I, I love that, and I think the- That's what I always think about is like, explore these interests, like no, like even though it may not feel like applicable now. It's like, you just never know how these things connect. Um, because, oftentimes when I, when I talk to folks they're like, I need to like, niche down, super like, I just need to like, put the blinders on. And sometimes there's an off, there's a time, a right place and a right time to put the blinders on. But like, again, there's like you know, you just never, if you don't, kind of like, spread your wings a little bit, and kind of see what's out there, you just can't make that connection. Which is ultimately you know, massive breakthroughs, again, come from that a lot of the time, not every time, but a lot of stuff.  

Johnny - 00:15:47: Yeah. Exactly.  

Jon - 00:15:48: So, during your PhD, by the way, I don't know how you slept, like because, I believe this is during your PhD, you also you know, had internships, and you're starting to dabble, in industry simultaneously, is that correct? 

Johnny - 00:16:05: Yeah, so like Boston's a unique place for this in the bio world, right? Like obviously Silicon Valley for tech, but like Boston's a little bit unique. And Boston's got an incredibly concentrated ecosystem that like actually is like leads to a lot of benefits. You know, it leads to also like high housing prices, obviously.  

Jon - 00:16:26: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we forget about that.  

Johnny - 00:16:29: But like it has a lot of incredible benefits, right? Because like, you know, between like, you know, Harvard, MIT and the Harvard Medical School, which is across the river, right? But like between all the like VCs in Kendall, all the biotech in Kendall, right? And then like in Copley too, right? Like, you know, this is like maybe five miles like within the Charles River, basically, right? On either side, you can find like all the necessary ingredients to like have an ecosystem. And like that meant that like, you could just like walk, right? Silicon Valley has this for like, the Blue Bottle next to the mental office, right?  

Jon - 00:17:06: Yes.  

Johnny - 00:17:08: Like everyone knows that's like where like founders and VCs hang out. I think in Boston, there's that tat. I've asked the workers themselves, is it like tat or tat? And like they don't know either. So I don't know how to pronounce it correctly. But either the tat or the tat, like... If you just hang out there, you'll see everyone. You'll see every flavor of person in the ecosystem walk through at some point. And so, like, I think that was the incredible thing about Boston, right? It was just, like, you could just access everything so easily, whether it's, like, you could walk, you could bike, you could take the tea. Like, if you really want to find parking, you can take a car. So, yeah, that led to, you know, opportunity, right? Like, this is, like, a Harvard Medical School event. Like, Raj from RA was there. It's like, hey, Raj, like. And they were like, hey, we make these maps, basically. I was like, oh, what's that? And he was like, well, we take a disease area. And everyone knows they make these maps. They take these disease area. They put all the different drugs, whether it's pharma, biotech, everything. They map it out. And they're like, hey, this is a landscape. This is how we landscape, basically. And then we update it. We do that. It's like, well, you know. I can do that. I can help with that at least.  

Jon - 00:18:29: Yeah. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:18:30: I'm like, Raj, I can help with that. And so, you know, I just spent... Time with them. And then that led to like, it was like pure text, like at the time it was like company incubation, right? Company creation. And so they're like, well, come think about new ideas. Well, it's like, oh, that's really interesting, right? Like, this is like where like the fascination started for me, right? Which is like, hey, like, read a paper. And like, you know, these papers don't, and many, like most times, right, don't have to have the application in mind. It's like, hey, we found some interesting biology. We developed a cool new tool, et cetera, right? And it's like, hey, like, take that and think about what you can apply it to, right? And it's like. A non-trivial question. And then, like, how do you path it out? How do you de-risk it? Which, like, you know, that's also, like, a skill, frankly. Like, how do you de-risk it quickly? How do you, like, actually get the answer? Right? Because the worst thing that can happen is, like, you spend a lot of time and money and something, and you don't get the answer. Right? Which is very easy, actually. Right? You just, you ask the wrong question. You run the wrong experiments. The experiments come back. You're like, oh, well, like, the line's, like, kind of separate, right. Like, so if I squint at it I can convince myself if I like actually, I'm you know honest with myself not really-  

Jon - 00:19:56: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:19:56: So, like, oh, that happens a lot right yeah and so and then like Vida was just like they were just like hey like we're we're just a new shop we're like you know just starting and it's like wow like to see it almost from the ground level. Everything around has been built from nothing at some point. And so you're like, how do you get that going? How do you build a team? How do you find that first kind of mix of people to start working together? Very non-obvious in some ways. And how do you create that culture? The culture is so important. The more times I see this, it's like the initial culture is just so important because it just sets the tone. And it's hard to change. And that's the beauty of it. So that's the advantage sometimes of starting from scratch, which is there's no priors that you have to work with. And so then you get to set it. But once you set it, then it's hard to move. And so you want to set it in the right direction at the very beginning.

 Jon - 00:20:59: Love that because like i think i feel very strongly about that too you know, I was doing like a workshop about this and people like kind of sleep on it. It's kind of just like, ah, yeah, it's kind of like the love, laugh, live that you put on, you snap on the, you know what I'm saying? And you just like slap it, call it a day, slap it on the wall, time to do the hard work, the meaningful work. And you're like, actually, you probably should think long and hard about this culture that you're setting, because it's, again, you said it sets the tone for everything else that you do. And if you just like, if it's not dialed in, like a lot of the times companies just like implode because of it, because you've already alluded to it. It's just like, there is no right answer. It's like, it is what you want it to be. Just like, you know, I think about it outside of life science, but you know, you can think about, I use the example of like Amazon versus The Home Depot, both sell a lot of things, very large companies, very global, they sell a lot of things. But they have different cultures, like super different cultures, and no culture is right or wrong. It's just what's right for you and your team. And it kind of you're talking about, it's like, you know, it's like, companies are just groups of people figuring it out. And yeah, and like, the culture is kind of like, when there's like uncertainty, they can fall back, like, well, this is what we believe in. And this is what we how we behave. So we should probably behave like that. And it's just so different.  

Johnny - 00:22:31: There's, yeah, I'd say like, you know, there's more functional and less functional.  

Jon - 00:22:35: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:22:37: So you certainly want to be on the more functional side. And like, you know, I think at the end of the day, it's kind of like, like, I think, when you approach it from someone who doesn't study it, you think people self-organize, because you're like, well, like, I, you know, I'm a reasonable person. 

Jon - 00:22:49: Yes.  

Johnny - 00:22:50: Or like, everyone thinks they're reasonable for them. So like, I'm a reasonable person, like other people are reasonable people.  

Jon - 00:22:55: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:22:56: I don't know. Maybe your view of other people is different, right? But like, you're like, I'm a reasonable person, I hire other reasonable people. So reasonable people coming together should like be able to work together, right?  

Jon - 00:23:06: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:23:06: But like, there's just differences, right? And there's like differences in the way that people work, there's differences in culture, obviously, that like people bring in with them, right? And so there needs to be an organization and, you know, some kind of structure. And so I'm incredibly grateful because I think we spent a lot of time on that at Menlo. And VC especially, I think it's an industry where you can be working on a lot of different products, different even fields, and everyone has their own companies in many ways. And so you can spend a lot of time on your thing. I think as a firm, like we spend a lot of time thinking about how we can help each other and how we share learnings. Right. And how we learn from each other, because ultimately, like that's that's why we exist as a firm, as a partnership. As an entity so that we can all kind of benefit from being with each other. Right. And like, that's. That's the whole point of having, you know, this entity, right? So we can all, like, the act of rowing. So I did crew in Cambridge, right? Which is, like, it's a fascinating sport because, like, it's the same thing. Where, like, you're like, well, like, it should be pretty obvious, right? You're all trying to row together, right? But once you get in that boat and you try to row together, the first few weeks are just never, like, look at it from the shore, right? You're like, that doesn't look right. And, like, anyone can tell it doesn't look, right? Even if you have no prior experience, right? You're just like, it's, like, nothing, like, you know, it's just not in sync, right? And you're like-  

Jon - 00:24:35: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:24:36: Why is this so hard?  

Jon - 00:24:38: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:24:40: Because like, you know, that little difference propagates, right? So like, you know, the guy in the front like sets the speed and then if that second person's like a little bit off, right, then they're off. Then that third person's going to be a little bit off from whoever they're looking at and whoever they're looking at, by the way, they're looking at, you know, the person in front of them, like two seats tough, right? Like, you know, once you get to the back, like, there's all these things, right? You need to like, figure out like what are the rules and like what people need to be following and like, and that's why we have a coxswain at the front, right? Which is like, they're yelling out instructions because like, you know, eight people just throwing them in a boat and telling them to row together. It's just like, unless they're like very experienced, it's just like, it doesn't work, right?  

Jon - 00:25:28: Yeah. 

Johnny - 00:25:29: And it's the same thing, right? It's like in anything where you're like, having people bring them together and work together, you need those reps basically to get in sync.  

Jon - 00:25:39: Absolutely. I haven't rode before, but I can imagine there's like, once someone's off sync or not in sync, the ripple effects can be bad. Like, I think you're just like, you know, it just throws everyone into more disarray. And I think of it as like organizations too. It's just like, if you run the thought experiment, and you can think of plenty of companies that kind of went through this for real. It's like the culture is not properly set at the onset, but then you start pouring gas onto the fire to like scale really quick. And all you have done is kind of like this, using the rowing metaphors, it's like, the first three people were not rowing in sync. And then you just like put more people into that who are now rowing even in less sync and maybe just going in opposite directions. And it's just like, Hey, you guys need to set the foundations, set it up properly first before you start pouring the gas on the fire. Because like the gas is like the multiplier. It can like make, if you guys are in sync, then magic happens. Like you start really like seeing crazy, like crazy kind of outcomes, but it also goes in the other way. It's just like, yeah, now everyone's just going opposite. We're just at a standstill. And there's like people, people are not happy either. Like this is like, you know, there's an element to not only just like operational efficiency, but like, if you don't set the culture with intention, people are going to be unhappy. Like, because like, I think I see it all the time. It's just like the expectations aren't set. And when the expectations aren't set, you're like, what the heck did I get into? Like, I thought I was getting this, but I'm getting that, you know, like, and financial services, broadly speaking, venture, investing, broadly speaking, like, again, there's a bunch of different flavors to do investing. And there, there is no one right way to do it. Some folks have an investing culture where it's like very lone wolf. The structure, like you know, the legal structure. But the folks are just like, individual lone wolf, that are just bringing in deals, slugging them down. And it's kind of a loose affiliation, and that sometimes that works, like you know.

Johnny - 00:27:55: It'd be highly effective, if you have a lot of high performers.  

Jon - 00:27:57: Yeah. And that's okay, right? Like you know, that's like just like a different style. Because like I know, one of my, my buddies, that's where he gravitates too. He basically just runs his hedge fund that way. Phenomenal returns.  

Johnny - 00:28:13: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:28:13: But, I'm just like, like, for me, I'm more on like the Menlo side. Where it's kind of like, together or kind of like more collaborative. Theirs is like, almost combative, like, that's almost combative? And I'm like, how? And, but they all like it. Like they, that's like, that's just like their, their, their energy, and that's that's how they row.  

Johnny - 00:28:30: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:28:31: And it's different energy. And I'm just like, oh my God. But, so- But all this, like, all this wind up, is to say is that, you got to just be, uh, clear in what it is. Right? Attract people that like that, like, if you want people who like that kind of lone wolf combative energy. Then you should probably say, it at the outset, when you're like trying to bring people in, like this is what the culture is like, and this is what you're signing up for. Works for us. So, if I signed up for that, I would have a miserable time. I'd be super unhappy. I'd be moaning about it. So I go the other way. But I think, there's not enough time spent on thinking about this. And I, you know, it reminds me of like, your kind of what you talked about for why Econ, was interesting to you, it's like the behavior aspect.  

Johnny - 00:29:15: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:29:15: All this behavior. And, I realized like, during you know, these kind of stints, these were probably not super long stints, but like, I haven't worked at RA before. What's RA like? Just like organizationally. 

Johnny - 00:29:28: RA, yeah, I mean, it's probably different now, right? Well, just the headcount's grown, frankly, right? 

Jon - 00:29:33: Yeah, totally.  

Johnny - 00:29:33: And it's scaled, right? Which I think for a lot of these biotech firms, it is that combination of like, hey, high science, very smart people, MD or PhD or like, you know. The science understanding with them from- And you know, I, you don't need an advanced degree, right. You can understand these things. You know, if you spend enough time, just like dedicating yourself to this. Right. Which like, you know, I think a lot of people do. And then pair that with like, a very like strategic thinking, right. Which is like hey like, And on the early stage, it's like, well, what's the path? How do we de-risk it? How do we get to answer? How do we just reach that next milestone and then build from there? Ultimately, you always have that end goal in mind. Hey, what are we trying to achieve at the end? For late stage, if you're in a public market, there's a clinical event coming up, then you're getting into that data. You're like, hey, do I believe in it? What are the probability of success? How I think about it? What's that going to look like? I describe it as reading tea leaves, which is probably not the right thing. I think that the people who can do it and who do it incredibly well, there's obviously a little bit of art to it, but there's a lot of science behind it. There is a level of understanding that, you know, you would hope that it's rough-gible, right? Because then that's kind of what gives you, like, long-term alpha, right? And on that side, a lot of these, like, you know, high-performing shops, it's a very curious place, right? And one where you're just, like, very, in many ways, like, honest. I guess the word is truth-seeking. You're trying to find that. And, you know, sometimes it's difficult and sometimes you'll disagree, frankly.  

Jon - 00:31:19: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I-  

Johnny - 00:31:20: You have to bring the data with you. 

Jon - 00:31:22: Yeah, that's really fascinating too. Because like, there are also firms that like, who are also very successful in life science, as you're describing it, like they're led by folks who don't have these advanced degrees. You know, you don't have to be classically trained per se. It's just like a different style, which is really fascinating. And, you know, I don't want to call it vibe investing because it really is not that. I don't want to call it that because it's like, you know, like, I think it's important for listeners out there who aspire to invest. It's just like, if you don't know it, you just need to spend the time to learn as much as you can. And if you get to the, if you reach a point where it's just like, kind of, you feel like you reach your limit. There are other people who probably are experts in the field and you can piece it together. You're like, I'm weaker in this subject. Maybe I bring in a domain expert who's very good at this subject. I guess it's like, you don't have to solve everything yourself.  

Johnny - 00:32:13: Oh yeah, no. Well, I think that's, you know, this, this industry is very humbling to be quite honest.  

Jon - 00:32:18: Yeah. Yes.  

Johnny - 00:32:19: You know, like-  

Jon - 00:32:20: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:32:22: You'll be wrong. Like everyone will be wrong. Like you always try to be right. Like, you know, you, you want to be long-term, right? This is the tension between, in investing, to be honest, which is like, you are a hopeful skeptic. I don't know if that's right. There's a million ways to say no. In fact, like one of my other mentors told me this when I took on a new job, actually, he's like, the first few years of your career, you're paid to say no. Right. You're like, you know, when you enter the industry, kind of using your like skills, you're like, you're doing diligence. And it's a little bit glib, right? Like, obviously, like you want, you're trying to find reasons to say yes, but like, there's a million reasons to say no. Right.  

Jon - 00:33:03: It's a little harder to say yes.  

Johnny - 00:33:04: Right, for any of these companies, right? Because there's a million and one ways where it won't work out. And that's the risk that you're invested. If there's no risk, there's no, there's no, like- 

 Jon - 00:33:15: The opportunity doesn't exist.  

Johnny - 00:33:17: Right. Like, I don't know, but like, maybe it exists. Like, I haven't, I haven't, there are obviously things where you're like, that's a slam dunk. Like, we should do it.  

Jon - 00:33:26: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:33:27: Right. But there's always going to be risk there still, right? Like, frankly, like sometimes the slam dunks don't work out. And then the things you're like, well, like. I don't know. Those are your best deals, right? And so that's the thing in this industry. You're trying to hold things in tension at all times, right? And then you're trying to execute. And that's the thing where it's like... I think our partners, always remind us of that, right? It's just like, hey, once you write that check, that's step one. That's the easiest thing.  

Jon - 00:33:56: Yeah, that's the easiest thing.  

Johnny - 00:33:59: Now you've got to execute, right? There's so many ideas out there. There are good ideas, and just that fail during execution.  

Jon - 00:34:08: Yep.  

Johnny - 00:34:09: People can disagree with me, right? But I think that's the thing that ultimately most companies, the ones that fail, like, the science fails and stuff, sure, that happens. But there's a large number of companies that just don't execute correctly. And it's not that they dive into the ground or something. It's just like the decisions that were made along the way led to an outcome that could have been changed if other decisions were made, right? And so then you're always making decisions in the vacuum of the data that you have today. And that always changes. It's always incomplete, frankly. And I always tell entrepreneurs, that's why you need a board that's active. Not to overstate the importance of VCs or something, but I do truly believe that having a good active board, because I think some people are like, oh, well, I'm there to manage for a CEO, right? I'm there to manage the board, right? No, the board should be your partner with you, right? And that's how we view our board role, right? We are a partner with you, and we're there to help and to help you think about some of those strategic decisions. It's kind of like what you said, right? Like, hey, board meetings are a chance to take a step back, right? And to say, hey, like... Am I on the right path? Like, where can I do better? Where can I deviate? Like, these are the things that are going well. Here's what the last three months look like. What do I want the next three months to look like? And ultimately, like, what's the next two years? Or like, you know, what's the end goal here?  

Jon - 00:35:50: Yep.  

Johnny - 00:35:50: Right. And like, that's critical. Because if you don't, if that's not right, then like, what are we doing? Like, all this thing in the middle, it won't matter, right? Like, you got to stick the landing, as you say, right? So like, we got to make sure that we're ultimately like... Working towards something that we all fundamentally believe is the right thing to work towards.  

Outro - 00:36:14: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Johnny Hu. In part three, we dive deeper into Johnny's transition from science to venture investing, the lessons he carried from his PhD to Omega Funds, and how early mentorship shaped his understanding of company building and capital allocation. He also shares thoughts on translating scientific risk into investment judgment, how culture and operational choices shape outcomes, and why supporting founders in their life's work is the most meaningful part of his job. If you're enjoying the series, follow the show, leave us a review, and share it with a friend. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.