AI & the Future of Biotech: Teambuilding, Investing, & Innovation | Johnny Hu (Part 4/4)

Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup, from pre-seed to IPO, with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, Johnny Hu shared what drew him to longevity research, how his first biotech investments came together, and what inspired the founding of Formic VC. If you missed it, check out part three. In part four. Johnny reflects on his path to Menlo Ventures. What it's been like returning to gene editing after years away, and how he's thinking about unlocking true platform potential in life sciences. He also shares his outlook on early-stage biotech, the importance of mentorship, intellectual range and curiosity, and what's ahead as he continues building at the intersection of biology, computation and company creation.  

Jon - 00:01:14: So you're at Omega, and I know after that you went to your next firm. Can you talk about, did you know what was next for after Omega?  

Johnny - 00:01:21: So Dave Hirsch kind of was building a Boston office at the time, right? Like, again just like a good opportunity to just like, build from the ground up. Boston is obviously a very rich ecosystem, just be the two of us like, you know, pounding the pavement, like, looking at deals, you know, at a very good firm already. And obviously they've done deals in Boston, but this is doubling down on that focus. Right? I just remembering like, selecting the design of the, the office itself, right? Like-  

Jon - 00:01:52: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Down to the nitty-gritty. Yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:01:55: Yeah right, the frosting. Right? I remember like.  

Jon - 00:02:00: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:02:00: You don't want your office to completely glass, right, so you're like, trying to like decide what like how much of the frost like, design on it. You know, like all these little things though.  

Jon - 00:02:09: That's very interesting. Because like, people forget that like, investment firms, like, there's like firm billing, at aspects to this, where it's just like, it's just, like company building. Like-  

Johnny - 00:02:20: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:02:20: And then also, I think entrepreneurs forget too, that like, you know, on the other side of investors like firm building, and also, you got to raise capital as a, as a venture firm.  

Johnny - 00:02:29: It's kind of yeah.  

Jon - 00:02:30: Yeah. So like, as much as any like, the fundraising journey is painful as hell, but it's also painful as hell for VCs too, like, it's like, hey, we're like, you know, talking to LP is not easy, like, you know, it's kind of like, I guess all I'm trying to say is that there's like an element of empathy. Or at least you should try to, you know, for entrepreneurs who might be getting frustrated with the- How hard it can be, y'all, it's hard for VCs too. Like it's hard for, all investors like, oh yeah.  

Johnny - 00:02:56: Well. I think, the other way to put it is, it's like, it's the partnership all the way down, right like you know, between a lot of different stakeholders. Right. and this is the partnership all the way down, and like everyone needs to be around the table to enable the ecosystem.  

Jon - 00:03:07: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:03:08: Like, it is somewhat secular, do you know what I mean? Of like, hey, like everyone is, you know, working in many ways towards the same goal. And so I think everyone in many ways is aligned, right, on what the kind of best outcomes are. And like that's what makes it all kind of work. And then I think that's kind of the beauty of it in some ways, which is like the, like you said, like everyone is relying on each other. Right. But also everyone's like helping each other.  

Jon - 00:03:34: Yep. Absolutely. So you had another kind of like similar Vita, kind of like firm building experience at Longitude. What ended up bringing you to the West Coast for Menlo?  

Johnny - 00:03:45: Yeah. Partly personal. My wife moves to West Coast. She's an academic. And so she's a CS professor at University of Washington, which is why we're here. I think Menlo is a bit of a unique place, frankly, where it's like there's a lot of collaboration, a lot of intersection. Right. And so like the access to all of our colleagues around the firm. And so we see technology broadly, if you will. Right. And then the firm also appreciates that, like, we need subject matter experts. For all of these different verticals, both from like an investment standpoint, but also from like an entrepreneur standpoint, frankly, right? Like your entrepreneurs want to work with investors who understand what you're doing. I think that's the value add that we hope that we can have as a firm too, right? Is that we're along with you for the journey. And so we don't want to be passive, right? And that being active means that, you know, we also have to have a fundamental understanding of what you're building, of your business, right? Of your goals, as we're talking about, right? And like that does require... Subject matter experts, right? As much as like, you know, that's true on the bio side, that's true on the tech side, that's true on the consumer side, right? That's true for like enterprise as well, right? And for cybersecurity, for fintech, like all the supply chain, I can name you like all the different verticals that like, you know, Menlo is investing in and we believe that we need kind of partners along the way who are deep subject matter experts in all of those, right? 

Jon - 00:05:20:

 Absolutely. And I think about it from my company building experience is like, it's awfully hard to be to contribute or lead something without having like done it myself at least a couple of times. Right. Like I haven't, you know, at least a rodeo or two. And then you become way, way more contributing as a stakeholder because it can actually like understand what it is, this thing that you're looking at versus just like thinking about it in the abstract, which, you know, there are plenty of folks who just like don't do that. And, you know, I think during 2020, 2021, there are a lot of folks who are like, I'm going to get into life sciences because it seems cool. And they're frankly not here anymore because they're like, oh, this is a whole ball of wax that I, you know, it's just like too hairy and too complex. And it requires a level of domain expertise.  

Johnny - 00:06:15: I was going to say there's someone in Boston. He's like, oh, you're like, you know, the bio curious firms.  

Jon - 00:06:21: Yes. Yes. That's exactly. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:06:25: We are, we are not-  

Jon - 00:06:26: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, you know, that's a quick way to lose money. Let's just say like quickly, you know, at a higher level one personally, how has it been the move to the West Coast? Like, you know, you, you're, you're talking about Cambridge being this like super dense, like two streets, one coffee shop kind of like where, right?  

Johnny - 00:06:47: It's a little bit of exaggeration.  

Jon - 00:06:48: Yeah. Yeah. Broad strokes, broad strokes, broad strokes, broad strokes, you know, but now you're, you know, in the Seattle area, how has that been for you personally, professionally, just like culturally as well?  

Johnny - 00:06:59: Yeah. Leveraging wealth around you always helpful. Right. And like, you know, fortunately, like I think Seattle is actually a great place to be looking at the intersection of AI and bio. Obviously like, you know, David Baker is here. He's got the Institute for Protein Design, like, you know, probably, well, not as arguably, but like maybe in arguably like the leading like Institute for like that intersection. Right. And so like, as much as I am fortunate to be like close and like, yeah, we made two investments from there already, right? In Vilya, which is like AI for macrocyclic peptide design. It's a very interesting company because macrocycles are such a hard chemistry problem. To design to be permeable and oral, right? And like, this is again, like public, right? Like, like Merck's PCSK9, like they spent like eight to 10 years just like working on the chemistry, right? And you're like, well, that's just like a lot of design iterations, right? It's like, is there a way that we can at least apply in silica tools? To help with that, to you know, eventually, one day just you know, hopefully in the same way that like you know, GenAI like, creates like images, like can it create some starting point at least for like macrocycles. Right. And so like, not to spoil the like, but, I, I think we're like, really making a lot of great progress in the company. And like, it's actually incredible like even, even from like, the paper obviously, set a great starting point, and like the progress that the company's made in the last few months, it's like, when we made investment frankly, like, I was like, I believe in this, but there's risk here. 

Jon - 00:08:33: Yeah, yeah. We got to prove some things out.  

Johnny - 00:08:34: Right 

Jon - 00:08:36: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Johnny - 00:08:36: 

Yes, like we're on our way,  

Jon - 00:08:39: Yeah, yeah. 

Johnny - 00:08:39: And then the other one zero, It just like you know, just it's, just incredible, right. Just like, incredible team, incredible fundraise obviously. But just like the, incredible ambition. I'd say of like, hey, like, can we just rethink just drug discovery, like, at large from the earlier stages all the way to the, you know, kind of clinical side, right? And obviously, like, on the basis of, like, David's RF diffusion paper. And how that took a lot, again, a lot of the learnings from the GenAI side applied the same and paired it with Protein Data Bank and the design tools that they've iterated on previously and added this new capability to it, right? And so certainly don't sleep on your, you know, what's locally to you, right? But then I think there's the broader ecosystem. So, you know, obviously, like I... Go down to SF like all the time, every other week, I still go back to Boston. Right. Part of the reason why I was hired to keep my Boston network, obviously. Right. And so, you know, there's incredible science going on. Around the country, around the world. And so that's also why Menlo's obviously will go to you, right?  

Jon - 00:09:51: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell Haytu and Arvin I say hi at Zara. I'm friends with them. Yeah, tell my Jon from Excedr says hi. And Jake Menlo says hi too. A lot of my best friends live in the Seattle area. So I spent a lot of time there and I frankly love it. I mean, you also have Microsoft and Amazon there too. And Valve, that's a gaming company, but I think the San Francisco area and Cambridge area get a lot of attention. But again, like you said, there's great science taking place everywhere. And don't disregard your local community because you'll be surprised at how much cool shit that's going down. And yeah, David Baker, what a beast. So we have been working with A-Alpha Bio for a really long time. So kind of within the proximity of David Baker. So it's cool stuff. It's like hearing all this is kind of like, you know, that's why I'm like, despite all the externalities that we can all be bummed about, there's really dope shit. Like, that is really dope shit happening right now where I'm like, yeah, it's easy to just like beat yourself up and go into this doom spiral. But there's really cool stuff that's being done. Just probably right under your nose. And I guess, quick question. How did the opportunity at Menlo come up? Like, did you just go? Ring, ring, ring, ring. Hello, Menlo.  

Johnny - 00:11:14: Well, like Menlo is expanding their bio team, right? Got it. So Greg Yap's the partner, right? He started, you know, well, so I should say, obviously, as I kind of alluded to, Menlo's got a rich history of doing biotech, right? Back to its early days and the founding of Gilead, right? And so like eight or nine years ago, kind of restarted the practice, right? Which is like, you know, and started with kind of what you'd expect from a firm like us, right? It was just like, hey, like, you know, Synthego, Recursion, you know, et cetera, right? And as we got kind of more reps in, we're like, well, you know, again, like you need subject matter experts, right? And so Greg Yap was hired first, you know, he's been here for like seven or eight years now, right? And then like, you know, as they grew the team, it was like, hey, we need to build, right? And so that's where. Came in and it's been a great partnership both with Greg but also with the full team right and like that's you know and especially like we're having conversations now on like from both sides right of like hey like how can grow the life sciences side and learn from the tech side for things like Goodfire, where their first application was working with Arc Institute on their EVO model, and the applications that they're working on in life sciences from a very AI/ML team that understands that and partnered with a lab to work on life sciences. And I should mention, we also have a broader health care team as well. So JP Sunday, Krum, and Andres and Derek, we have a health care practice as well, in addition to bio and life sciences. And we often collaborate with them on deals such as where sometimes Pharma is the customer, where health care systems, et cetera.  

Jon - 00:13:07: Very cool. And I guess just to set the table out there for the listeners, and these are very broad, but as you're seeing the life sciences venture landscape and entrepreneurship ecosystem as it is today, what is the current state of it? And how are you and your bio team looking to disrupt that or just do it differently and approach it differently?  

Johnny - 00:13:34: You know, kind of as you're alluding to, like, you know, on the public market side, obviously, like, you know, the sector is, you know, kind of in a downturn, right? I think for us, like, on the early stage side, we think it's an incredible time to be starting new companies, frankly, both from a technological standpoint, right? Like, hey, like, you know, and, you know, this is the worst that's ever good. Like, technology is always going to mature from here, right? So, like, today is the worst it's ever going to be, and it's only going to get better. So, like, it's not that it's bad, but it's, like, only going to get better, right? And so, like, how can we enable some of that, right? And also, like, I think there's just, you know, incredible founders, very passionate teams, obviously, like, a lot of talent out there looking either to start their own thing or to join an existing team. And so, like, you know, what better time to be starting in an early stage, frankly, right? And so that's how we view it. That's why we're active. That's why we're, like, doubling down our investments, and then also making sure that all of our current portfolio companies you know, we'll be taken care of and have, you know, the resources, the capital and et cetera, to succeed. Right.  

Jon - 00:14:43: And, you know, to, I guess, to get to harken back to like our previous, I kind of like the Vida kind of experience, but like for you and your team, is there a rough kind of area or type of company that you guys are fascinated by and like to look at, or is it just more, a bit more open-ended? 

Johnny - 00:15:00: Yeah, I think we are certainly very active at the intersection between AI and life sciences. We see the progress, both within our own companies, within the field at large. Even during our conversation, my intern just texted me two papers. I haven't been able to open yet. I think it's a new virtual cell model that came out, right?  

Jon - 00:15:27: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:15:29: But we are also cognizant of what are the capabilities today? Versus what's going to be enabled in the next six months versus what's two, five years, 10 years down the road. Frankly, the state of progress, at least in my mind, has been faster than what I expected. But I think the key differences, though, that you and I know of, like, why... The life sciences and like why it's unique. Why the physical world is unique in many ways. And like, you know, back to that data question, right? Which is like, hey, like, Protein Data Bank took decades. And if I had to recreate it today, would it take the same decades? No, obviously not. But is it weeks? Is it months? Is it years? What are the resources that need to go into that? And then what are the other data sets that exist? There has to be a richness of data. There has to be a scale of data. There has to be a quality of data and some precision accuracy, like control. And these things are not, none of those variables are non-trivial.  

Jon - 00:16:34: Yeah. That's for sure. That's for sure.  

Johnny - 00:16:38: So what are the data sets that exist that we can treat? Because these models are very data hungry at the end of the day. And then for a company, also like... Where's your impact? Right? Which is like, you know. If everyone has the same access to the same data sets, then what are you building that's differentiated from everyone else?  

Jon - 00:16:59: Yep. Absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:17:01: So you can think about it, right? Which is like, you can get your unique data set, which is where some companies have gone. Or maybe you're just thinking about applying the different set differently, right? Which is like, there's a lot of space, frankly, right, in the life sciences. You know, there's a big wide well. There's a lot of diseases left to cure.  

Jon - 00:17:19: Yeah, absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:17:21: But, you know, that being said. There's probably a lot of people working on it.  

Jon - 00:17:25: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:17:27: There's always this like, if it's worth doing, then there's probably someone else doing it too.  

Jon - 00:17:31: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:17:31: Right.  

Jon - 00:17:32: Absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:17:33: Not, not a reason to not do it. It just means you have to, you have to know. Right.  

Jon - 00:17:36: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with everything too. That's like how I, you know, being on the credit side that we, we, we try to, we try to put our vendor hats on and dream a little bit like, and that's always like something, you know, again, those, those kind of, those risks are non-trivial. But, you know, that's where you need to find an investor that can, despite the risk. Be willing to write the check and actually get behind it because, you know, again, there are plenty of folks who don't want to, and, you know, you need someone in the trenches with you. And as you're reflecting on just like... Investing in life sciences. And for anyone, I know a lot of folks who are, who come from the venture thinking about a career in venture, what's like... What's the most fun and least fun thing of venture investing?  

Johnny - 00:18:26: The most fun?  

Jon - 00:18:27: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:18:28: Yeah. At least for me, still the most fun is just like reading papers and talking to professors and like, again, like taking that little bit that I know and like applying it to what they are doing and like trying to bridge that path. Right. And so like, that's, you know. I assume somewhat unique to me.  

Jon - 00:18:47: Yeah. It doesn't have to be unique. It just has to be fun to you.  

Johnny - 00:18:51: Yeah. It's just fun to me. Right. And like some, it'll resonate with some people and some people be like, Oh, like, yeah, exactly. And that's okay. That's okay.  

Jon - 00:18:59: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:18:59: Right. Not least fun. I don't know.  

Jon - 00:19:02: There's got to be something. There's got to be something.  

Johnny - 00:19:04: But it's like you said, right? Like, it's not glamorous, right? Like, a lot of the work is not glamorous, but that's okay, right? Like, if you want a glamorous job, like, go become a social media influencer.  

Jon - 00:19:14: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:19:17: It's a glamorous job, right? But, like, you know, it's okay, right? Like, you know, there's a lot of just, like, on-the-ground work. It's fun or not fun, but it is work, right? And there are moments where all of that comes together and enables something that you didn't think it was imaginable. And you're like, wow, all of that led to this. And that's incredible, right?  

Jon - 00:19:41: Yeah. And I guess maybe another kind of adjacency to that is for anyone who's like, I'm going to pursue a career in venture investing, particularly in the life sciences. Are there any tips, common pitfalls you should avoid as you're starting off your career in venture investing and life sciences for anyone who doesn't have the wealth of experience that you have? 

Johnny - 00:20:04: I always just tell people just like, go, go talk to people. Right. And then like, I probably like, I probably didn't do this enough in, in grad school. Like, I think, you know, especially as a student or like you're still in a university environment, you know, cold, just cold emailing everyone probably isn't going to get a huge response. Right. But like, if there's like things that you can like help out with things that you can provide, like, you know, events that you can help organize things like that. Right. Like bring panels in, bring speakers in, right? Like, you know, these are the things that like, like everyone's... Very willing to go talk to people like one because like, we were all there at some point.  

Jon - 00:20:44: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:20:44: Right? And two, it's just like... You know, it's a forum, it's a discussion, it's a place where ideas are exchanged. And like, that's a great place to just meet people.  

Jon - 00:20:58: Yeah. I love that because I think people, you know, especially if you're still in school, you don't underestimate the power of a .edu email. Like, do not underestimate that power. Like, people will be more responsive versus just, like, sending it from, like, jonchee@gmail.com. Like, who the heck is this random Gmail? This is going straight into the trash. Versus, like, you have your EDU email and you're like, all right, maybe I'll give them a, you know, I was in school too. Like, maybe I should respond. And I think. There's nothing like, just like showing up, I think exactly, kind of what you're describing. Because, I didn't do enough of it. I was like, ah, networking. Yeah. Like, or just like talking to people. Like, I'm just going to do my own thing. But I kind of like beat myself up over it. I'm like, damn, I really should have got out there way more. I do it a lot now. But like, don't, you know, for anyone out there who's like thinking about it, it's like. Just go, go talk to people. Like it really, you know, it really can be as simple as that.  

Johnny - 00:21:56: Yeah, exactly. Right. And it's like, you know, eventually you'll meet someone and then kind of like just saying like, you know, they can introduce you to someone else, to someone else, et cetera, down the line. Right. But it's also just like. You'll learn something every time. Like knowledge is endless, right? And so you'll just learn something new every time and it'll be interesting. And like, you know, maybe it'll resonate you, maybe it won't, but like, at least you'll know at that point, right? A lot of life is like realizing what you like and don't like, I feel like.

Jon - 00:22:21: Yeah, yeah. It's one big trial and error. Like it is the crystallography tray. We're just like brute forcing our ways through life until the robots, you know, come and do it for us. But I would agree. Like, a lot of it is like, it's kind of similar to what you're saying about just like taking advice. It's just like some advice might not fit well for you and that's okay too. But like, you've got to go pursue it and collect it and then parse through it for yourself. Yeah. And a lot of the times it's just like.  

Johnny - 00:22:50: Yeah, exactly. Like everyone has agency at the end of the day, right? So you can decide what you want to do with it, but like, and you should, right? Like that's part of the responsibility and the agency, especially in an environment where kind of like you said, like you, you are at a stage where, people are willing, and more than happy to talk to you. It's like, that's a great opportunity.  

Jon - 00:23:10: Totally. And so, you know, now looking forward, maybe like one year, two years, like what's in store for you and your bio team at Menlo?  

Johnny - 00:23:19: I'm coming a little bit back to my roots, if you will, of like gene editing, right? Because like-  

Jon - 00:23:24: It always comes full circle, always, always does.  

Johnny - 00:23:27: Yeah. Right. Because like, you know, talk about it and, you know, there's all these like, you know, consternation, like, you know, articles being written right now. Right. And so like, if you look at the gene editing field, like what's happening, right? Which is like, the clinical success has been like, incredible. Just like, people use the word cures cautiously. And I do too. But cure in itself should mean a long term curative something of the disease, right? Which is like, and so like, I don't think we necessarily have all the data for that yet. But like, whatever you want to call it, like, it is something that has obviously changed the lives of the patients who have received it, right? Of like, you know, it's like, reading about the sickle cell patient who got the CRISPR gene editing and like, climbed Jimi Olaghere, right? It's like, freaking awesome. Right? It's like, that's insane that someone even attempt that, let alone do it successfully.  

Jon - 00:24:18: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:24:19: And David Liu just won the Breakthrough Prize, and he had... One of the cancer patients, right? And like, because they had received a gene editing treatment for her and she was the one who introduced him, right? And so, you know, I think it's just like an incredible time in the clinic against the backdrop of, you know, these companies that just, you know, have, whether it's market or like, you know, there's a lot of external market forces, obviously. I have a lot of questions about the like long-term survivability of the field even. And you're just like, what is it, like, why? Like, that doesn't make any sense.  

Jon - 00:24:59: It doesn't make sense to me.  

Johnny - 00:25:01: But like, you know, to be fair, like, I think legitimate questions, right? Which is like, hey, like, how are we going to get these things paid for? Like, what's the actual market for these?  

Jon - 00:25:10: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:25:10: And like, what is the actual development cost? Right? Because if it's going to take a few hundred million dollars to develop each of these therapies each time, right? Then you're like, well, then that just severely limits the number of indications that we can go after. But then these are not technical challenges. And I'm not saying that technical challenges are the easiest or the hardest to solve or something. These other challenges are real. And they require hard work and hard thinking. But it is not unsolvable at the end of the day. These are things that... With enough willpower and enough creativity, I'd say, right? Like there are ways of doing this. And even like some things that are simple, some things that will require like a lot of collective effort from multiple stakeholders and multiple parties. And the data points that we have right now are always like backwards looking, right? And so like, how can we build something in the future, in forward looking, that looks different from what happened in the past and addresses a lot of the issues that people rightfully pointed out to? And so like, that's... That's what I'm working on right now. Without saying too much more than that.  

Jon - 00:26:26: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:26:26: I think- I'm hopeful that, you know, we can really enable and like fulfill a lot of the promise of what the field intended to be from the beginning. Which is like you look at the huge right tail rare diseases, you add up all of that. That like that's a lot of patients.  

Jon - 00:26:52: Yeah.  

Johnny - 00:26:52: That's that's a lot of people who need therapies the challenges how to develop for each of these. Can we do that sustainably, scalably, et cetera? Right. And like, there'll be a lot of... Things that we'll need to figure out. Technically, there'll be a lot of things we need to figure out, you know, from a manufacturing standpoint, from regulatory, like, you know, all these things. I don't want to like, you know, say that it is easy because none of this is easy.

Jon - 00:27:19: Not a slam dunk. Not a slam dunk.  

Johnny - 00:27:23: Like, you know, I would like to think that it is a slam dunk because it is like required. Right. And also, like, frankly, like how many true platforms can you think of where like. I can go and design the editor today. And, you know, if I understand the mutation, if I understand what leads to that disease, I can go out and design an editor, presuming I have all the tools and it kind of fits in the profile that I need it to fit in. And... I can tell you with some pretty good confidence. You know, again, like there's going to be challenges, right? Like I need to deliver it. I need to like make sure the off target's correct. Like, you know, there's going to be a lot of things, but like, I can tell you with pretty high confidence, that like, I am fixing the underlying biology. And so if I can get all those other things right, it will work.  

Jon - 00:28:21: Yep.  

Johnny - 00:28:22: Like that's actually like... That's incredible. There's very few things out there in our field where I can say that. And so like, that's where like... For all the constellations about the field, like, the underlying science and the principle and the promise and everything has not changed. And so like, we just need to figure out everything else. Right.  

Jon - 00:28:47: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, it's just like, it's easy to get swept up in these. That's a very engaging headlines, like the doom of gene editing. That's going to get like people clicking on that thing. But I was asking myself the same thing. I was like, is it really like, is it just like, yeah, like this was like kind of like a early iteration of this. Of course, it's not going to be perfect. Like, of course, like, you know, it's only going to get better. And I think, you know, a lot of the time too, people always just think like, we're like stuck in this state and like, whatever, like this recent news or these past events, like recent past events is going to be what it's going to be like forever. But people forget that. But again, it's a, it's a, it's a lagging indicator. It's just like, this is the past. It does not indicate where the things are going to be in the future. And so I'm optimistic as well. And that sounds really cool that it comes full circle for you. 

Johnny - 00:29:38: Yeah. I'm optimistic. I'm hopeful. And, but it'll require work, right? Like, you know, things always tend towards more entropy, not less. Right. And so like it requires, work and and and you know collaboration, frankly, right. And like again, like, all these different stakeholders coming together. But like, you know, I think the work's important, and I think it needs to be done, and so, we'll be some part of it hopefully.  

Jon - 00:30:01: Hell, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:30:01: Let's get it done.  

Jon - 00:30:03: And you know, thank you so much for your time, by the way Johnny, this is like, I, I realized like you're, you have like, breaking news probably, just like pinging your phone, like, hey, like, new development, new development, like, I need you right now. So, thank you for being willing to spend this much time with me. I've learned a lot, had a blast, um, and I feel like I've found a kindred spirit. In traditional closing fashion, we have two questions for you. One is, would you like to give any shout outs to anyone who supported you along the way? 

Johnny - 00:30:27: Oh, God. Oh. This is, I mean, I just feel like there's just too many, right? But, like, you know, all of the... Mentors and advisor that I have now. I mean, frankly, like the colleagues that I work with today at Menlo, right? Like, you know, it's an incredible team effort. I truly believe that nothing is ever done by any one single person. Right. And, you know, whether it's all the, again, like all the like people who have, you know, helped me along the way. Or the most incredible things that happen in this world are at the end of the day, like, group of passionate, very dedicated people who have a big idea, and they're willing to commit and work. Like you said, it's not glamorous, right? But, you know, you get the work done and at the end of the day, like you find something incredible, hopefully.  

Jon - 00:31:16: Hell yeah. I would agree too. It's just like, it always like, again, it's just like you're standing on the shoulders of giants. Like you just like, you can't forget that. Like everyone, the work that was done previous to you just like set you up. Like, you know, set you up for what you can do now. You know, I'm glad that we don't have the mouth pipette, which is great. That's fantastic. And last question, if you can give any advice to your 21-year-old self, what would it be?  

Johnny - 00:31:41: 21 year old. It's like doing at 21.  

Jon - 00:31:46: You're contemplating crossing that six lane highway. You're going to risk it for the biscuit.  

Johnny - 00:31:53: Exactly. The one thing I will say, like, especially in, in like the world that we'll live in, in the future, right? Like, I think it's always important to focus, obviously, right? I think you want to go deep in something, but also like, you know, when you're, and maybe, you know, 21 is still the age. I think when you can still do this, like, just go explore, go look at all these different things. Like, you know, learn, learn a little bit of just, you know, biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, like no matter law, philosophy, right? Like, like being. Like a well-rounded person who just understands a little bit while still like understanding that you only know a little bit.  

Jon - 00:32:35: Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.  

Johnny - 00:32:38: Because it informs you of like what you want to go deep in. And like, it's kind of like the first conversation we started out with today, right? Which is like, your parents will have a view, I'm sure. Whether it's like follow in their footsteps or go complete 180 and do something else. Like, I'm sure that's informed by by their own life experiences. Like other people will give you advice that's informed by their own life experiences, like you know, you should be able to bring your knowledge and your experiences to it. So at 21, like you know, I think there's still time, to like, have those experiences basically. Right. And like, just see what you're interested in. And like you never quite understand, how things will play out, and like what, that thing that, you know, we're talking about artificial neural networks, right? You know if you're a CS major right like understanding like that neuroscience class that you took in in undergrad right or like you know conversely if you're not a CS major like having taken that CS course like in undergrad and like at least learning what coding looks like. We probably don't need to code in the future, frankly. It looks like we're on the path.  

Jon - 00:33:55: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  

Johnny - 00:33:56: Right? But to have a basis for what that looked like, to understand all the kind of ins and outs of it, just at some level at least, right, like means that because coding is going to be accessible to everyone. You're going to be in a much better position. To build something in that field that you want to build in, because it's going to be accessible to you.  

Jon  - 00:34:22: Yeah. That. That is like, so rings true, like for me as well, was like, I think about my experience as a, like you brought up law and like philosophy. I decided like as a weirdo, like bio person at Berkeley to go, go do a lot of law and philosophy simultaneously. And I have no regrets, like no regrets at all. And it like, I bring it with me today. And like a lot, you talk about being well-rounded, like there's just, it's like another tool in your tool belt. Like, and I think about too, just like growing up in Berkeley where like, there's a very strong food hospitality culture. And like, I kind of got, yeah, I got deep into like the food game too. And just like, like exploring that, and what the world of like the food industry is like, and learning about that. It was just like, again, I just like bring it with me to this day. Um, and, I, I encourage anyone, who's kind of at that path, it's like, be a sponge. Like, truly be a sponge. And like, it's kind of like we and just like gene editing, it's just like you'll never know what you, you'll be surprised at what you kind of, how these things come back full circle. And how you can connect these dots, like in what- Two dots that you never thought would actually connect, end-up connecting. Um, but you got to get out there, and you know, I, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. Well, Johnny, thanks again. Again, you've been super, super generous. I can keep going on and on and on, but I know you've got the hard work to do. So thanks again. I had a blast and hopefully I'll make my way up to Seattle and hopefully I'll get to see you in person soon.  

Johnny - 00:35:51: Let me know. Appreciate it. It was a really fun conversation. Much appreciated, Jon.  

Jon - 00:35:55: Super fun. Thanks.  

Outro - 00:35:58: That's all for this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. We hope you enjoyed our four-part series with Johnny Hu. If you did, consider subscribing, leaving us a review, and sharing it with your friends. Be sure to join us for our next series featuring Ivan Liachko, founder and CEO at Phase genomics. Phase genomics was founded with the mission of maximizing the impact of genomics on society. With the vast majority of biological information remaining unexplored, Phase genomics seeks to empower researchers to make breakthrough discoveries using the power of advanced next-generation genomic tools. The cornerstone of their approach, lies in a technology called proximity ligation, which enables unprecedented improvements in the depth and quality of information generated from DNA sequencing efforts. From tracking viruses and their targets, to detecting chromosome or abnormalities in oncology samples, their molecular and computational tools add a new dimension to genomic information. By continuously developing new genomic methods, Phase genomics seeks to bring transformative change to research, industry and the clinic. Ivan is a molecular geneticist and genomicist with over two decades of experience in wet lab and computational biology. He is passionate about applying genomic technology to improve our world and mentoring scientists interested in commercialization. Ivan received his PhD at Cornell University in 2007 and has worked in the genetic genomic research field for over 25 years. He has authored over 50 peer-reviewed papers and created multiple patents specializing in the field of microbial genomics and synthetic biology. He is one of the original investors of Phase's core technology and has served as CEO and CSO of Phase genomics since its founding. With deep expertise in genomics, synthetic biology and entrepreneurship, Ivan offers a unique perspective on translating scientific innovation into real-world impact, making this a conversation you won't want to miss. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life sciences sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.