Dr. Kate Yen: How a Translational Scientist Became a Biotech CEO (Part 1)

Intro - 00:00:01: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. 

Jon’s Intro - 00:00:23: My guest today is Kate Yen, founder and CEO of Auron Therapeutics. Auron Therapeutics is using cutting-edge science to develop next-generation therapies targeting the dysregulated cell states of cancer. By combining a proprietary database of single-cell genomic data with an AI-powered computational platform, Auron compares healthy cell development to cancer cell development and maps out the drivers of tumorigenesis. Kate has a PhD in biological chemistry from UCLA, where she also completed her postdoctoral fellowship. Before founding Auron, Kate held a position at Merck and a professorship at UCLA. She also held senior roles at Agios Pharmaceuticals, where she led the IDH translational research team responsible for the preclinical and clinical development of two FDA-approved IDH mutant inhibitors. She also co-led the discovery of Vorasidenib, a promising glioma therapy currently in clinical development. With Kate's extensive preclinical and clinical expertise, a proven track record of bringing innovative therapies to market, and a passion for tackling complex oncology challenges, her journey and insights are not to be missed. Over the next two episodes, we'll hear about Kate's journey, from her early passion for science to groundbreaking cancer research and leading Auron Therapeutics. We'll discuss how her hands-on approach shaped her career from Merck to Agios, where she helped advance novel cancer therapies through clinical trials, and we'll dive into the leadership lessons and strategic insights that now drive her mission at Auron to push the boundaries of oncology and beyond. Today, we'll chat about Kate's early days. We'll start with her time in academia, from graduate school to her transformative postdoc experience where she developed a passion for translational biology. Then we'll dive into her transition into industry, first at Merck, where she gained invaluable drug discovery experience, and later at Agios, where she played a pivotal role in advancing innovative therapies. Along the way, we'll discuss the key lessons she learned about leadership, collaboration, and navigating the fast-paced world of life science. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. 

Jon - 00:02:12: Kate, it's so good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast. 

Kate Yen - 00:02:14: Thanks for having me. It's great to see you as well. 

Jon - 00:02:16: So our traditional opener for the biotech service podcast, we always like to go all the way back to your early days and really like learn about what kind of influenced your business philosophy, your leadership style, and frankly, what got you into science. We always love learning about the origin story. So can you take us back? You know, tell us about your upbringing. What was it like, you know, in your adolescence? 

Kate Yen - 00:02:38: Yeah. So I have three sisters. So we have a big family. And my dad was a scientist and my mom was a writer. So she was more on the creative side. And, you know, we moved around a lot when I was young. So we lived not only in the U.S., but also moved to Europe for a few years and stayed there and then came back to the U.S.. So that was kind of exciting to be able to move around and see different cultures and different things. But for the majority of my childhood, I grew up in New Jersey with my parents and sisters and was always interested in science. My grandparents were physicians on my mother's side. And so I was always intrigued by that. My dad was an engineering geologist. So I was always kind of drawn to the sciences. 

Jon - 00:03:25: Very cool. Where in Europe did you live for that period of time? 

Kate Yen - 00:03:29: Yeah, we lived in London. My dad was actually British. So I spent some time back there. He was working all over Europe, working on engineering projects. So that brought us over there. 

Jon - 00:03:38: Amazing. Before I hit record, I mentioned I haven't left Berkeley. So I'm jealous that you had an opportunity to live overseas. I always wonder, I'm like, I'm probably missing a lot. 

Kate Yen - 00:03:51: It's a big world. 

Jon - 00:03:53: Yeah, it's a big world. And I was like, I got to get out there. So, you know, it sounds like you had both science and also English and like literature kind of present in the household. For your father, was he always like, you need to go into science? Or was it something that was always kind of like intrinsically came from within? 

Kate Yen - 00:04:09: More came from within. It was interesting. It was probably more from my mom, not in science, but was more of, you know, she had four daughters and she wanted us to be educated and have careers and be able to do anything we wanted to. But I always liked science. I liked medicine. I thought I was going to be a doctor. I kind of thought I wanted to be an MD for all my life. And then I started to do some research in college and, you know, after college and, you know, I really got the bug and decided I thought I'd rather do a PhD track. 

Jon - 00:04:40: Yep. Awesome. And you mentioned like, you know, you kind of were going in thinking about, you know, potentially being a physician. And also like your choice of university, like how did you, you know, choose end up going to College of St. Elizabeth? And can you talk a little about going in? You know, did you have an undergraduate lab experience? 

Kate Yen - 00:04:56: Yeah. So it was interesting. I stayed in New Jersey to go to College of St. Elizabeth, mostly because my mom had come down. She was ill. She actually, you know, sadly passed away of early onset Alzheimer's. And I was helping my dad somewhat take care of her. So I stayed in New Jersey, went to school there. But I think that also kind of instilled in me the interest in research and in science and medicine. And so, you know, it was sort of a forced choice, if you will, as to where I went to school for undergrad. But then when I went for grad school and I made the decision to do a PhD rather than an MD, I really was excited about the opportunity to kind of branch out and go somewhere new. And UCLA seemed really exciting to me. 

Jon - 00:05:38: Awesome. Did you get the lab bug while in undergraduate or was that later? 

Kate Yen - 00:05:43: Yeah, I did. You know, I didn't, the research when I was back in college is much different than the research is now. 

Jon - 00:05:49: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. 

Kate Yen - 00:05:51: A lot different. 

Jon - 00:05:52: Yeah. 

Kate Yen - 00:05:52: But I did, I worked in an industry, I worked at a, it was a company called Allied Signal at the time. I did it in the summer and I worked and did some molecular biology research. And then during the year, I had an independent research program in my undergraduate, which really got me excited about just basic biology and sort of disease areas. I also went to Princeton and worked for a year in between deciding between med school and graduate school. And while I was there, I was, you know, the lab manager, but I also had my own independent research project that I got to work on. And I was working directly with a postdoc there, and I really enjoyed it a lot. I started taking classes. I was sitting in on some of the graduate classes, learning about the studies I was doing. And that really solidified my bug for going into doing a PhD. 

Jon - 00:06:38: That's amazing. I'm always curious about that first, like, jump into the lab for me. It was like, oh, it was just a friend. Just like, hey, come check it out. I was like, what is this? I was like, sure. Like, okay. And then after that, I was like, just like hooked. I was like, oh, you mean I don't have to just like memorize this textbook? I can actually work with my hands? Was that a similar experience for you? 

Kate Yen - 00:07:00: Yeah, no, for sure. I think, you know, sitting and memorizing things is kind of, you know, boring, but, you know, you getting into the lab and thinking, reading about stuff and getting excited about ideas and thinking about how you could test those ideas and having the tools to do that in the lab to really, you know, discover new biology, really, I found fascinating and sort of charting new frontiers, which was exciting. 

Jon - 00:07:25: Very cool. Yeah. Talk about the tools. Like, yeah, like even like within the past, like 10 years, the tooling is like so different. 

Kate Yen - 00:07:32: So different. 

Jon - 00:07:33: I was like thinking about like how much pipetting I did. I was like so much. And it's like, they're just robots that do it now. I know. I'm like, you have it so good. Like you have it so good. 

Kate Yen - 00:07:43: I know. 

Jon - 00:07:44: It was sweltering hot and just like, ah. 

Kate Yen - 00:07:47: I tease all the kids so much about this now. I mean, I'm like, oh, you can just pour a gel of a different percentage. And they look at me with wide eyes like, what are you talking about? 

Jon - 00:07:56: Yeah, you're just like, what do you mean? You're like, you're looking at me crazy. It's a very different time, okay? Like, just like, understand. Whose lab are you in at Princeton? Were you just like, basically in that postdoc lab? 

Kate Yen - 00:08:08: No, I was working in a lab directed by Mike Cole. And he was the PI. And then there were postdocs within his lab. And we were studying Myc, there. He has a lot of research on c-Myc, trying to understand the role it plays in basic biology and transcriptional regulation. And that's where I started my sort of hardcore molecular biology research, I would say. So it was really exciting. And actually, now, here I am all these years later, I ended up studying Myc in my PhD. And then I now, in my company, it's coming full circle. 

Jon - 00:08:42: Full circle. 

Kate Yen - 00:08:43: It's going to be probably my life of work here to figure out what Myc is doing. 

Jon - 00:08:49: I love how that happens. I love how there's these seeds that are just planted in very, very early days. And I'm curious about that. Your first, you mentioned hardcore lab experience. Can you talk about what was a moment for you where it was like, this is another level. This is hard. And how did you handle that? 

Kate Yen - 00:09:07: Yeah, no, I think technically there was just much more sophistication to the experimental design. I mean, we were using radioactivity. I'd never used that in undergrad and things like that. And then when I was taking some of the classes, you know, I, you know, just the questions and the way they were, the tests were set up as much different than undergrad. Right. You know, it's a lot more, you know, you have to one sentence to figure out how to solve this problem. And you're like, okay, I got to really think this through. 

Jon - 00:09:34: Yeah. 

Kate Yen - 00:09:35: So it's really fun. 

Jon - 00:09:37: Oh, so I was just going to say, just like, and I'm sorry for interrupting you, but it's like, I had that same moment where I'll just like, it almost is like, do you get thrown into the deep end? Yeah. And they're just like, swim. 

Kate Yen - 00:09:46: Yeah, exactly. 

Jon - 00:09:48: What? But sorry, I interrupted you. 

Kate Yen - 00:09:50: No, no, that's exactly the same way. And, you know, I like that, you know, being tackled, you get a problem in front of you and sort of figuring out how to solve it. But, you know, tapping into expertise around me and really finding people that have knowledge about this problem and how can we kind of crack this nut together and really working in a collaborative way. And I think that's one of the things that I've taken with me through my entire career is no one's the smartest person in the room, and you kind of just have to figure out how to study biology. It's very complex and there's a lot of different angles. And so, you know, working together, hopefully we can make some progress. 

Jon - 00:10:31: Absolutely. And I love hearing that where you're like that you had an opportunity to be in like a very collaborative lab, like to begin with, because I've like definitely done rotations where the lab is just like almost like independent work.

Kate - 00:10:42: Yeah, definitely. 

Jon - 00:10:43: There's different, like, obviously different styles and different ways to approach it. But I find myself like I'm much more collaborative in nature. Like, I'm not smart enough to just do this by myself. Like, I'm not that smart. But I love that, you know, kind of sounds like it was like a team effort more than anything. 

Kate Yen - 00:10:59: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:11:00: And so, you know, you mentioned like, this was like, you've caught the bug. And you're now starting to think about your graduate school. Like, yeah, I know, you ultimately ended up at UCLA, where were you looking elsewhere, too? Or were you like, you know, UCLA is the one? 

Kate Yen - 00:11:13: No, no, I looked, I applied to a bunch of different schools all over the place. I liked UCLA for a specific reason, because they had just started this program called Access, where they, you know, UCLA is a huge school. And we were the first class of the Access program. And basically, you came in under an umbrella through the graduate program, and you had Access to any department on UCLA campus. So you didn't have to apply to just neurology or molecular biology or biochemistry. You could just go under this umbrella, and then you could do your rotations through any department you wanted. So you had so much opportunity to think through and learn and figure out what you actually wanted to do. So that was really why I decided to choose UCLA over the others. 

Jon - 00:12:00: That's amazing. I love that because like sometimes you can like, at least in when I was at Berkeley, I was like very much in like my toxicology lane. I was just like, I was just there. I was like, I was in one building talking to one group of people all the time. So very cool to hear that there's like the ability to just like go around. 

Kate Yen - 00:12:19: Yep. 

Jon - 00:12:20: Yep. And question, going to the West Coast, that must have been also a personal change for you. How was that, going from East to West? 

Kate Yen - 00:12:27: Yeah, that was tough, actually. It was definitely a different experience. You know, I've grown up mostly on the East Coast, so I'm much more used to this going out there and understand this weird no seasons thing. Why is it warm when it's supposed to be Christmas? I didn't get that. But, you know, you're also in grad school. And I was fortunate because within that umbrella, you gain Access to a lot of people and you meet friends and so forth. But, you know, it was pretty isolating. All my friends and family were back East and I was really solo by myself out there. And, you know, grad school, you're a starving grad student, you don't have a lot of money, so you're kind of trying to make ends meet. It's not exactly the cheapest place to be. But yeah, I got used to it once I settled in and it's definitely took some time. 

Jon - 00:13:18: Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine just like just being utterly confused that it's like 65, like all the time. 

Kate Yen - 00:13:25: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:13:26: And you probably like pack the wrong things. You're just like, I have all this winder gear. This is like, I don't need this. But can you tell us a little bit about the lab that you're in and the research that you ended up pursuing? 

Kate Yen - 00:13:37: Yeah, so my lab that I did my PhD in was with Mike Carey, and we were studying transcriptional regulation there. And I think I probably landed there just because, you know, from my background working on Myc, you know, it's a transcription factor. I kind of was in the same zone. But Mike was also or is an amazing teacher, and he taught some of our early molecular biology classes. And he just made it very clear to me and organized, which I liked. And I really wanted to jump in and kind of solve that problem. So after my rotations, I decided to join his lab and, you know, really dig into how genes are turned on and off, because ultimately, I wanted to apply that to translational research where, you know, for medicines. And so, you know, my love or my idea of thinking about treating patients and working with patients, you know, was always underneath there. But I was just going to apply it in a different way as opposed to being a medical doctor or do it through research that can bring medicines to patients. 

Jon - 00:14:40: Very cool. And was this lab also as collaborative as the Princeton lab? 

Kate Yen - 00:14:45: Yeah, it was very collaborative. He's a tough guy. He's great. I mean, he learned so much from him. But definitely, he expected a lot from his grad students and postdocs and pushed hard. But I learned a ton from him, like how to do really good experiments. I also learned how to always have something cooking in the background. 

Jon - 00:15:06: Yeah, that is a very valuable lesson, like even outside of lab. Like, you're talking about like how like these kind of like lab experiences sometimes just like get thrown in the deep end. But there's another element of two that's like stuck out to me as you're describing this is that I found I grow the most when one you get there in the deep end and then there's a very high bar that's set. 

Kate Yen - 00:15:29: Yes. 

Jon - 00:15:29: And it's it's terrifying. Like you're like, what? But it really stretches your imagination of what you think is possible. 

Kate Yen - 00:15:37: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:15:38: And then you reflect through it. At least for me, I like look back. I'm like, that was painful as hell. But there was a lot of growth that kind of like came of it. And you always surprised yourself when you push yourself in that way. 

Kate Yen - 00:15:50: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:15:51: Very interesting. And it sounds like, you know, Mike was kind of basically kind of set that bar super, super high. As you were kind of wrapping up your PhD., did you know, like and graduating from Mike's lab, did you know that you're ultimately going to go do a postdoc or at that point where you're thinking about, like, what's next for me? 

Kate Yen - 00:16:09: No, I definitely wanted to do a postdoc, but I think I always wanted to go into industry, which was not usual at that time. 

Jon - 00:16:17: That's what I was going to say. 

Kate Yen - 00:16:18: Yeah, it's definitely not usual. I mean, it was very much kind of frowned upon. Like if you're in an academic track, your goal is to do a postdoc, get your own lab and, you know, be an independent investigator. But I wanted to make medicines and I wanted to help patients and learn that translational science. And so my boyfriend at the time or fiance at the time, he was still there and he was an MD-PhD student at UCLA and he had more training to do. So I knew I wanted to stay in LA and I wanted to do a postdoc. And I really was fortuitous. Charles Sawyers lab was right there at UCLA. And he was doing that translational research that I was super excited about. And, you know, he's a physician scientist and his lab was focused on studying prostate cancer. And really trying to understand how the mechanism of how prostate cancer develops and how we could identify biomarkers to understand which medicines are better to give to which patients. And so I approached Charles and said, hey, you know, I need to stay in LA at UCLA. And he knew me through the academic stuff. And he was like, oh, my gosh, you want a postdoc? Yeah, come on up. And so I really kind of lucked out. I walked into that lab. And honestly, I can't say enough good things about Charles. I mean, he's an amazing mentor. And I had a wonderful experience there. 

Jon - 00:17:43: Very cool. Like zooming out and just like thinking about UCLA, you know, and you mentioned like, you know, going into industry was like at that time, probably not the popular route. It sounds like his lab was kind of like a more entrepreneurial lab in contrast to the rest of the campus. 

Kate Yen - 00:17:59: Yes. And he had a lot of physicians in the lab that were doing postdocs. So they were, you know, obviously physicians seeing patients, but they were stopping and coming in and working in a lab to understand how to do that translational research as well. And I really liked that experience. And it was just a sort of not as basic science as, as all the other labs that had that element of application to patients. 

Jon - 00:18:25: Were there like companies like spinning out of his lab at that point in time? 

Kate Yen - 00:18:29: Not at that point in time, but they have spun out of his lab for sure. When I was there in his lab, there were two things that happened. He was collaborating with Pharma to develop what is now Gleevec for CML. And at the time, he was, you know, working on the clinical trial for that. And so that was, you know, influencing the lab and sort of part of the lab was working on CML and the other part of the lab was working on prostate cancer. I was working on the prostate cancer, but I could see how he would bring back samples from patients and we would analyze those samples in the lab. And we could actually figure out how and why those patients were or were not responding to the drug and helped in the development of that, of Gleevec, which was super exciting. And then I was always intrigued by that. And I wanted to kind of use that as I, you know, advanced my career as well. 

Jon - 00:19:23: Very cool. I had like a similar experience. I was in a lab that was doing very basic research. And I was like, like, exactly. I was just like, I want to get into that kind of translational space. And at that time, too, Berkeley was like very much just like industry, like just stay away, like stay away. And I always like remember as I was like trying to find my kind of translational opportunity, I was like kind of speaking to two PIs. And there was some like nasty conversations. I wasn't, by the way, I was like so naive to not like expect that this kind of like reaction would happen. I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I apologize. I am so sorry for even thinking about doing this. I'm so sorry. But then you fast forward now and then, you know, it's more of a gradient rather than this binary thing where you're like. Like zero and one, you're like, there's kind of like this in between, there's like the collaborations and now companies are actually like spinning out, which was like a foreign concept like back then. So very cool to see that you are at the forefront of that for UCLA. 

Kate Yen - 00:20:29: Yeah, they actually just brought me back. A year and a half ago, I went out and gave a talk to my old group. And it was really fun to see some of the professors and showing them all the stuff I had done at my last company. And they were actually showing the grad students. They were actually beginning to teach the grad students that there's more than just one path besides going down academic track. You know, there's industry, there's venture capital, there's IP and legal and business and all the pieces that come together. And I think, you know, some of those kids were really excited to see that, you know, it's not just so black and white, as you were saying. 

Jon - 00:21:03: Absolutely. And I still remember the existential dread I had. I was like, what am I going to do? Like I said, I got to pay some bills somehow. Like, I got it. I got to do that. And for me, I was like, I don't got what it takes to be a professor, which is like the NBA. Like, you know, I'm not there. And I was like, am I going to be destitute if I don't, if I don't become a professor? Like, this is hard, but I love hearing that they're now like, you go back to UCLA and they're actually like. Trying to talk about like, they're like the horizon is like way, there's way more opportunity out there because like I think, and I try my best to stay in touch with folks who are in graduate school, doing their PhDs and postdocs and just like kind of stay close to like that. And hearing that there is, it's way better than like, way better, way better because now they're not that existential dread. The heat has gone down a little bit. They're like, okay, there are opportunities outside. 

Kate Yen - 00:21:57: You don't feel guilty by saying that you want to go into industry. You know, I was really careful who I would say that to. And I can't tell that professor I'm doing that. 

Jon - 00:22:06: I wasn't so careful. I wasn't so careful. I thought about it. I was like, I took some classes at the business school at Berkeley and they're like, you got to do market research. And I was like, okay, this sounds like market research. So I'm like, let me go do this market research. And I was like, oh God, oh God, maybe I shouldn't have done this. I'm so sorry. Like business people, like, why'd you tell me to do this? But I'm sorry, I digress. So if you're looking like, if you're comparing your postdoc experience and your PhD experience, it sounds like it was more basic research during your PhD, postdoc became more translational, kind of more in your pocket. Did you know after your postdoc, what was next? 

Kate Yen - 00:22:48: Yeah. So like I said, I had told Charles that I wanted to go into industry and he was like, okay, you know, and I, and he was, he was branched into industry because he had connections, obviously. But, you know, my husband was still finishing his training because, you know, you can't stop going to school. 

Jon - 00:23:04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds about right. Sounds familiar. 

Kate Yen - 00:23:08: So we moved to Colorado for one year. He was doing a fellowship after he finished his residency at UCLA, did a fellowship there. And I worked for that year as a consultant for the Mouse Miles of Human Cancer Consortium. But I knew that I was moving East to the East Coast and to Boston, and I wanted to get into industry. So I was kind of keeping my foot on the gas for some of the research that I'd still been doing with Charles and all the academic collaborators that we had built together. And then I was applying for jobs in industry and I got a job halfway through that year in Colorado at Merck. So that was exciting to me. I felt like I had like landed. It was it. I had my dream job and I was in industry and I was going to go make all these drugs and cure cancer. And off we went. 

Jon - 00:23:55: Awesome. Well, I guess first question, how was the move from LA to Colorado? Personally, just like, how was that for you? 

Kate Yen - 00:24:03: That was easier. I mean, we were there for one year. We lived in Vail, so that's not bad. 

Jon - 00:24:08: Not bad. Not bad. Not too shabby. 

Kate Yen - 00:24:10: Yeah, not too shabby. And my little sister lives in Denver, so it felt like it was fun to be there. And we had two small children at that point, and I had my third child there. And so, you know, it was a little hectic, you know, but it was kind of a nice sort of segue into the next phase of my career. 

Jon - 00:24:28: Cool. So you land at Merck. You know, this is it. 

Kate Yen - 00:24:33: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:24:34: I guess maybe first, how did that opportunity come about? Were you just went knocking on doors? 

Kate Yen - 00:24:38: Oh, it was probably through the Mouse Models of Cancer Consortium. Someone had connected me to the hiring manager at Merck, and I applied through that. So it wasn't like a cold into Merck. But they were doing the translational research, and they were looking at mouse models for understanding biomarkers and how you could use them to track efficacy in patients, which was right up my alley. It's what I had done in my postdoc. So it was a really good fit. And I learned a ton there about drug discovery. But it's definitely different than what I had been exposed to. 

Jon - 00:25:09: Totally, totally. And before you got to Colorado, I know you were a professor for a little bit. Was that after the Colorado experience or before? 

Kate Yen - 00:25:17: Yeah, no. So it was sort of a weird in-between. So I did my postdoc. I was a postdoc for three years in Charles's lab. And then I was an adjunct professor for almost three years while my husband was finishing his training. And then I went to Colorado and then to Merck. 

Jon - 00:25:31: Got it. Very cool. And we were like, again, like before we hit record here, like talking about how like networking and like this meeting people is like important when it comes to kind of like securing opportunities, which was like, for me, a very novel concept back then. And I can't pretend that I'm good at it now, but it's kind of like something for anyone out there who's like trying to figure out what that next step is. It's like critically important that you put yourself out there. 

Kate Yen - 00:25:57: Yes. 

Jon - 00:25:58: Even though it is a little bit scary. 

Kate Yen - 00:26:00: Yeah. And Charles was really, I think I learned that the most from him. He is probably one of the most collaborative scientists I've ever worked with. And, you know, he does top-notch, state-of-the-art research, you know, top-tier journals. But rather than, you know, people can get, oh, I'm going to have the nature paper and, you know, I'm not telling anybody what I'm working on. His approach and philosophy was very much like, well, if they're doing something similar, let's collaborate and do something better. Right? And that's like his way. And that's how I was trained. And I really like that. I think I flourish in that sort of environment. And that's how I began to network with folks. And so I made a Myc model for prostate cancer there. And some other labs had an AKT model. Some others had a PTEN model. And instead of us all racing to fight each other over, who figures out prostate cancer, we were figuring out and comparing our data, so we could understand what makes this mouse different than that mouse, than this mouse, so that we could actually advance the science. And through those collaborations and networks, I really, you know, gained Access to a lot of really exciting research and people that really helped me along my career. 

Jon - 00:27:11: That's incredible advice and like perspective, because I think it's kind of like this thing where if you just feel like if you think it was like a thought experiment, if you don't like reach out, you could just be doing redundant work. 

Kate Yen - 00:27:24: It's a waste of time. 

Jon - 00:27:25: Yeah, it's a waste of time. It's like, yeah, I get it. I get it being first author, publishing in nature and being first. There's like something to that too. But you're just like thinking about it. If you guys just never speak, you could just like be like in these parallel tracks and you're just like, come on, we would be far more like productive together, which I love to hear because, you know, sometimes it's kind of like you have to like swallow your ego. You're just like, we can do this better together. So that's very cool to hear. And so before Merck, you know, you've had a lot of like academic laboratory income. And this sounds like obviously the first big industry opportunity and one of the biggest. Can you talk a little bit about like, what that experience was like? Like first day, like early days in a massive organization like Merck. What was that like? Did you have like culture shock or was it like, oh, this is it? 

Kate Yen - 00:28:11: Yeah, no, it was definitely a culture shock just because I think those big companies and, you know, you have to be because they're so big, they end up being very layered and bureaucratic and sort of siloed in functions. And that was kind of the exact opposite of how I'm used to working and where I thrive. So that to me took a lot to get used to. And I didn't really understand that it was a little bit more like mass production science, like you do something and you hand it off to somebody else and they take it from there and then they take it from there and it keeps going, which I thought that just was foreign to me. But that being said, I think what I did learn and what I think industry obviously is exceptional at doing and big pharma is really drug discovery, basic drug discovery. And I think there's, I've said this all the time through all my career in industry, there's two tracks. There's one, there's a basic science where you need to really understand. And then there's the drug discovery aspect that's layered over that, where you take that knowledge that you've understood about the biology and you apply that and you go through the process of developing a drug. And I learned that process of developing a drug when I was at Merck. And so that was extremely valuable to me. I feel like I came in with kind of the understanding on how to do the science part of it, but I learned and layered on top of it, the ability to, or the process of drug discovery. 

Jon - 00:29:42: Very cool. I'm going to imagine the drug discovery process at Merck is one very rigorous and a very large endeavor. And despite the silos, when you were learning, were you able to kind of like pick the brain and tap on shoulders of folks who are like, let me, let me show you like. 

Kate Yen - 00:29:59: Yeah, for sure. And then again, I was thrown into the deep end in that setting, right? Because I didn't know drug discovery. I didn't, I mean, I didn't really understand the process of it at all. I was like in a lab and doing basic science, right? So I sat as a core team member on the, one of the main projects there, and I was the biology lead. And then there was DMPK and chemists and biochemists and, you know, all kinds of functional heads that came to those meetings. And I got to see all of those components that go into developing a successful drug and learn from each one of those people along the way, which I think really, ultimately that type of big pharma environment wasn't the best fit for me, but that learning experience at Merck on how to do that part of it was very valuable as I took my next step into Agios. 

Jon - 00:30:50: Yeah, like I think about that. It's kind of, it might not be a forever home, but like what an opportunity to have, like to be at the table with like all these experts. Like where else are you going to find that, right? And then you can just like osmosis, just like soak it up. And I always think about. Whenever I'm trying to learn something new, it's kind of, it's almost advantageous to like come in with a blank slate because people are like, I got it. Like you have like this window of like 90 days. 

Kate Yen - 00:31:17: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:31:18: To be annoying, basically. And where they're not annoyed with you. They're just like, of course, you're new. Let me show you. But if you go past 90 days or whatever that date is, they're like, come on, you should know this by now. 

Kate Yen - 00:31:30: You got to figure this out. 

Jon - 00:31:31: Yeah. So I always, whenever I'm new to something, I was like, I have this window. I can ask all the annoying questions now and then just start absorbing. 

Kate Yen - 00:31:40: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:31:42: So, you know, it sounds like you were able to really just like learn a lot and like learn a lot about the drug discovery process. You mentioned like you decided to move to a smaller company. How did that opportunity come about? And talk a little bit about that experience. 

Kate Yen - 00:31:55: Yeah, I always have a funny story about that. I remember Lew Cantley, who is one of the founders of Agios, his lab was at Harvard and it was right outside the door of Merck. The building sat next to each other. And he came over to Merck one day and gave a talk about, you know, basic science, but how these genes, these metabolic genes could be playing a role in cancer. And I just thought that was so interesting to think. Everybody at that time was looking at all these kinase cascades and how they are going to drive cancer. This was just like a new way to think about it. And so I was really intrigued by that. And I actually got a cold call in my office. I'm not even sure how Michael Hsu got my number, but he did. And he said, hey, I heard about you. We have a lot of experience in, you know, molecular biology and animal models and translational research. We have this new company, Agios, that we're starting. We'd love to, you know, interview you. I'm like, okay, I didn't know anything about it. And Lew had just spoken. So I was excited. So I went over and I interviewed for the job. There was not even, they didn't even have labs yet. Like we're sitting on stools. Like it was like this gutted place. And I'm reading the gorgeous Crystal Palace of Merck to go to like this like warehouse room. 

Jon - 00:33:11: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. 

Kate Yen - 00:33:13: And I was like, what's going on here? 

Jon - 00:33:14: Yeah, yeah. Am I going to get kidnapped? Like, am I safe here right now?

Kate Yen - 00:33:20: Yeah. And I had no idea about the whole biotech thing. Like I was very naive to that. So I came back and I called Charles and I said, Charles Sawyers. And I said, look, I've got this opportunity. I don't know anything about it. What should I do? And he said, I don't know. Let me call Lew Cantley and I'll call you back. And then he called me later and he said, well, I think you should join the company and I'm going to join the SAB. And I'm like, okay. 

Jon - 00:33:45: Wow. Wow. What a kind of great way to back channel and such a good co-sign. Like, not only do I like what I hear, but I'm getting involved. 

Kate Yen - 00:33:54: Yes. Yes. So I was like, all right, enough said, I'm in. And then I left. 

Jon - 00:33:59: Very cool. Very cool. And what timing, too, that, like, there's a talk and a ring, like, just a cold call. And I love that. I love that approach, too. Like. I was like talking about like, just like, how do these opportunities come, like come about? Sometimes it's just that, like, it's that cold call or it is sometimes it's like mustering up the courage to like, just reach out. And I understand like that, that, that is a hard thing to do, but sometimes that's just like, you know, it sounds like this was a pretty big pivotal moment, like a big pivotal moment from a cold call. 

Kate Yen - 00:34:31: And I was scared, right? I mean, you have a job security and I, you know, had three small kids at home. My husband's a resident. He just finished his fellowship still and he was just like running around like we're just getting started. And, you know, I was like, oh, my gosh, am I going to really like just go to this tiny little company that at that time they had raised $30 million. That was a gazillion dollars back then. It was nothing. But back then it was a big deal. And I was worried that maybe I was making a mistake. But I think to your point, I got thrown again into that deep end. But I was in that deep end with everybody in that company. And the collaborative spirit and the everybody roll up your sleeves, we're going to work together was the piece that I was craving that I didn't have as much at Merck. And so I felt like it was like the perfect opportunity. And now I've learned the drug discovery. I have a good handle on biology. I can figure out how to do experiments. And then the other part of being in a small biotech was that. I got to see the business side of it up front and center. And that was really exciting to me. It was like learning all of the pieces that go into building a company. I've been learning all along in my career. And I didn't realize it. 

Jon - 00:35:43: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Kate Yen - 00:35:44: But it was happening. 

Jon - 00:35:46: Yep. Absolutely. And when you joined, how big was the team? 

Kate Yen - 00:35:51: I was the 11th employee at the company. 

Jon - 00:35:53: Oh, wow. Okay. Like very, very, like very nascent stages. Very nascent stages. That's so cool. I know your first role was, you know, director of pharmacology. Can you talk a little bit about what were your responsibilities? Obviously, I'm with a startup. I'm going to imagine you wore a lot of hats, probably outside of pharmacology as well. Can you just talk a little about that era? 

Kate Yen - 00:36:13: Yeah, so they brought me in because I had a lot of experience in mouse models. And we were trying to use mouse models, you know, as a more sophisticated way to study cancer and the diseases associated with cancer. And, you know, so I was in charge of all the in vivo kinds of studies that were going to go on. So we had a biology team that did the in vitro work. And then when it moves into the next level, I was the in vivo biologist that was going to take it in that translational science. Again, bringing together like the DMPK and the drug properties and all these things so that we can biomarkers that you need to drive drug discovery. So that was really my initial role. Then I was given the opportunity to work and lead the IDH program, which was the lead target lead program at the company. I headed up the translational biology team and that was kind of pulling all of those functions together and then driving the science for the discovery of those molecules. 

Jon - 00:37:09: That's so cool. Also, like what an opportunity. Just like they're like, here you go. 

Kate Yen - 00:37:14: It was it was really amazing opportunity. And the team around me was just, you know, supportive. And I learned at that stage, you know, it's always scary to say you don't know something. Right. And, you know, part of throughout your career, you never want to admit that you don't want to look dumb. But, you know, when you're some point you get thrown in so deep that you're like, all right, look. 

Jon - 00:37:37: Yeah. 

Kate Yen - 00:37:38: I don't know what I'm doing, but I can figure this out if we work together. And that was kind of the mentality that Agios had. And we all everybody just rolled up their sleeves and we worked together to push those molecules into the clinic. 

Jon - 00:37:53: I can go in so many directions, but something that really stood out to me as you're describing this is, again, it's kind of like, it's kind of scary to admit that you don't know something. But it's so powerful. It's so powerful. 

Kate Yen - 00:38:05: It's freeing for yourself, too, right? Because I think you make that leap. When you are willing to admit that, you make a leap much faster. And, you know, put your ego aside and figure out how you can synergize with other people to drive things forward. 

Jon - 00:38:21: Absolutely. And I think, too, another aspect of that is the secret that there is no secret. We're all just figuring it out. We're all just figuring it out like and sometimes, you can kind of see, like Agios, is like a very large like company, or you look at like NVIDIA now. And you're just like, oh, they, they have it figured out. He's like, oh no, they were in the salt mines, for like yes 30 years, figuring it out. And, and it's like, everyone is just figuring it out, and that like you said, it's like liberating. You're just like, okay, we've put the egos aside, can we just like. 

Kate Yen - 00:38:54: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:38:54: Let's work together here. 

Kate Yen - 00:38:55: Exactly. That for me was like the biggest, and that came from the top at the leadership at Agios They really empowered the teams to think that way and work that way. And our CEO would walk in the room, our CSO would walk in the room, we'd have RAs presenting, no one batted an eye, no one cared. It was more of like, you know, just get up and talk about what your research is and what problems you're having, what things going well, what's not going well. And we can all collectively kind of think through this problem to help advance things. And again, I think that was a unique opportunity there with that environment and that culture that was set up. And that came a lot from David Schenkein. And that was his MO and I think really is what drove the success of the company. 

Jon - 00:39:40: I love to hear that too, because like sometimes people talk about like company culture is kind of like this soft, like kind of nebulous, fluffy thing. And we're like, we're like, we're scientists. It was like, we're hardcore. Like we're super objective, like quantified. Right? But then like you have, you think about this, like all of this is possible because of that soft, fluffy, nebulous thing of culture and like being like intentional in its design. So I love hearing that because like, also it makes people want to stay and work at your company. 

Kate Yen - 00:40:08: Yeah, absolutely. 

Jon - 00:40:09: That's important too. And so, you know, in this role, I know you also were managing collaborations, like external collaborations with academia and CRO. So maybe if we can unpack that a little bit, you're now in industry and now you're like, you're like, oh, like my colleagues in academia, like how do we design an effective collaboration? How did you approach that? 

Kate Yen - 00:40:28: That was to me like supernaturalB because I had a lot of big network in academia because of, you know, I'd spend so much time there. Like for me, when you do make in a mouse model, a lot of these mouse models take years to generate. And so like in industry, you don't have time or the money to like go and remake the mouse model and then do the experiment. So I went to my boss and I said, look, you know, Kwok Wong has the right lung model I need to go study. I'm like, what do you want me to do? Do you want to spend two years making a mouse model? Or just give them the drug and let them do the experiment and we can move forward. And luckily, again, the team and the way the company was set up, everybody was like, no, we'll just figure out the way to, you know, give them Access to the molecule. And it's a win-win because companies know how to make drugs and potent drugs that they understand how to dose and use. And then the academic labs, that's what they're lacking. They have the deep mechanistic. But they don't have the pharmacology tools to be able to dissect the biology. And so that synergistic relationship between those industry and academics is a win-win. And we always publish, co-publish together. They publish, we publish, we advance the programs, we get to the clinic and they get to, you know, write grants and be part of these really exciting academic industry collaborations that bring drugs to patients. 

Jon - 00:41:53: That's so cool. And I always, like, I, you know, in my head, I was, like, fist pumping in my head. I was, like, that's exactly how I think about, like, partnerships is, like, these, like, positive sum win-win situations. And also it just reminds me, again, just kind of this thing where the collaborative nature is, like, super important here where you're, like, do we recreate the mouse model? 

Kate Yen - 00:42:12: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:42:12: And just, like, do the same work again, recreate the wheel, or let's just, like, keep it moving. 

Kate Yen - 00:42:17: Yes. 

Jon - 00:42:18: Let's keep it moving. 

Kate Yen - 00:42:19: Absolutely. And we had a really great lawyer at Agios who was, like, of course we're going to make this work, right? I mean, they're not going to get hung up in the legal jargon. I mean, it takes a while to get through that. But we were willing to move quickly and figure out ways to be creative with the IP around what's generated so that it's, you know, companies protected, the industry or the academic labs are protected. And we collaborated with multiple groups. I always do that. And then the way I collaborate with them, too, is I'm very transparent. Like, I'd say, oh, I'm working with you on this part of the project, and I'm working with X Lab on this part of the project. And then we would have lab meetings with all three, the industry and the two and three labs together so that there's no surprises. No one's mad. Everybody understands where the authorship's coming right from the get-go. And then we parse it out into multiple papers. And I felt like, you know, that really worked well for us there. And I use that today in the company that I've started. 

Jon - 00:43:17: That's awesome. And I think too, as like, I'm hearing you kind of, there's like a lot of intentionality to it too. And it's also like empathy where you're like, I need to understand what you are motivated by and how you are feeling. And if you just ignore that and just like bulldoze them, that's like, it's more zero sum. It's more zero sum than it is positive sum. And I always like try to like talk to my team and just like put yourself in their shoes. Like what is it that they care about and do your best to ensure that they get what they care about. Obviously not at the necessary expense of you then, but it's an exercise in empathy, which I love hearing. And that's academic collaborations. Now, CRO collaborations, not academic laboratories. How did you approach that? 

Kate Yen - 00:43:58: Yeah. So at Adjus, we didn't have a ton of money. We had some lab space and we had teams that were working and doing work. But actually, we had a woman there, Shengfang, who had a lot of connections back to Chinese CROs, which at the time were just starting to get up and running. And the labor, obviously, was a lot cheaper over there. And they were trying to build CROs, but they didn't have the technical expertise, whereas the people in the U.S., had the technical expertise. And so it was a win-win where we built a lot of these collaborations with some of these initial CRO groups to provide guidance to their team to help us move our projects along. We treated those team members, though, as part of our team. We didn't throw something at them, be demanding, oh, I want to see this assay. We explained the science, why we were doing the experiments. They would come to our meetings. So they felt like they were part of the team. And it was more rewarding for those employees at the CROs to be part of our projects. And so we would get the top tier people on our projects because they were excited to work with us because we didn't treat them like slave labor, right? And so I think, again, it just goes back to that theme of being collaborative at every stage of the place. And we had CRO work in the U.S. too, different places for different activities. But again, it was always treating people with respect, and treating people as a group. 

Jon - 00:45:29: Totally. And I love hearing that because for Excedr, I've been on the other end where it's like, I just been squeezed like really, really hard. And I get it like that person doing the squeezing. Yeah. You got a lot out of me, but it's a terrible feeling and it just does not make me want to work with them again. And like life is long and you got to think about, at least for me, like, look, this is my, I'm speaking for Jon here. I'm not going to speak like, cause there are very large institutions that get by, by squeezing everybody. And that's just their, that's their culture, but it's like not mine because it was a very formative experience. I was like, oh man, this is awful. And then from then on, I was like, you know, exactly what you said, even though they're like a vendor partner, like I treat them part of like the family. 

Kate Yen - 00:46:16: Yes, exactly. 

Jon - 00:46:18: It does a very specific tactical example is like when people send us bills, we'll pay it early. Like we'll pay it. Because we know that money in your pocket helps you. 

Kate Yen - 00:46:29: Helps you, exactly. 

Jon - 00:46:30: And I, and versus, you know, there are large companies are like, I will pay you in 120 days. And maybe I won't, maybe I'll miss that payment. And then, you know, for your partner's like, well, oh, I kind of needed that money to pay my staff or whatever. And that experience like can be really, you know, very tenuous and painful. So I love hearing that, like, despite being a vendor partner, it's like, hey, like, come on in. We're going to be collaborative. You're going to learn to, it feels like a much more healthy relationship. 

Kate Yen - 00:46:59: Yeah, for sure. We worked hard. We went on trips. We would have personal interactions with the team. We would go over there. They would come over to visit us. Well, they didn't have Zoom back then. You know, we would have late night phone calls and sometimes we would be the ones staying up late and not making them stay up late. Right. And so we would just rotate. And, you know, I think it worked for us. And Shengfang did an amazing job of really managing all of those international relationships. 

Jon - 00:47:27: That's amazing. And I realize this is the baptism of fire era for you. I know you also like opened up and led like a vivarium as well. 

Kate Yen - 00:47:36: Yeah. Yeah. I changed my mouse cages. I should say. 

Jon - 00:47:40: Can you talk about that experience a little bit? 

Kate Yen - 00:47:44: That was crazy. You know, we did open the vivarium in the site. I brought my technician. I stole my technician from Merck, who was wonderful. And she had a lot of mouse experience. You know, literally one days I was washing cages and we would go in on the weekends and feed them and change the bedding. And, you know, we didn't even have the staff to do that. So it was, we were soup to nuts doing the whole thing. 

Jon - 00:48:10: Yeah. That's like, amazing to hear with you. Like you were talking about like the layers of like skill sets that are being acquired, like basic science, translational drug discovery. You're doing like these soup to nuts in vivo. Like nowadays you're like giving Charles River a call, like can you run the studies? No, no, no. Like you were like, we're going to do it. We're going to learn how to do it. And I think there's something about that, that I think about for myself too, is that you learn a lot by just like rolling up your sleeves. And getting your hand dirty. And I think something about that too, is that once do that, you're much better at leading and managing a project that involves that because you're intimately aware of like- 

Kate Yen - 00:48:52: What it takes. 

Jon - 00:48:54: What it actually takes. And that is, I think, uh, it's always like, I always feel like no one's above anything like at this company, there's value in just like rolling up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. And so I love hearing that, you know, and now again, it's kind of like, I think Charles River already incorporated Explora BioLabs, but like vivarium, like you can just like, you can almost do like a, a WeWork for, for like, for like your, your rat studies. 

Kate Yen - 00:49:19: Yes. Yeah. I don't think many people have live vivariums anymore. 

Jon - 00:49:22: Not anymore. Yeah. Not anymore. 

Kate Yen - 00:49:25: But you know, and it's really expensive and there's a lot of paperwork and stuff that goes along with that too. But, um, at the time it was what we needed and we rolled up our sleeves and we got it done. 

Jon - 00:49:35: Yup. Absolutely. 

Kate Yen - 00:49:36: Absolutely. 

Outro - 00:49:39: Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with 

Kate Yen. Be sure to tune in for part two. Where we explore how she led groundbreaking cancer research at Agios, tackled the challenges of advancing a novel therapy through clinical trials, and ultimately built Auron Therapeutics from the ground up. Kate also shares insights on navigating biotech fundraising, structuring partnerships with big pharma, and the importance of staying lean while building a successful biotech company. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends. See you next time! The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.