The Dark Side of Postdoc Culture Nobody Talks About | Nicole Paulk (Part 2/4)

Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to the Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, Nicole shared growing up as a farm kid in the Pacific Northwest, shoulder injuries that triggered an identity crisis at 18, falling into science for a paycheck, and why a summer treating patients in Kenya and Tanzania convinced her to swap her MD plans for a PhD. If you missed it, check out part one. In part two, Nicole talks about moving to Portland and stumbling into Markus Grompe's Oregon Stem Cell Center via a Craigslist ad, unaware he was one of the most celebrated stem cell scientists in the country, spending months nicknaming him "Marky Mark," leaving whoopee cushions under his chair, and filling donut holes with Sriracha, only to discover he was meeting with the President of the United States. She shares what it felt like to do her PhD in Grompe's lab during what she calls the "golden, pure, best days" of her scientific life, the culture shock of Stanford's relentless postdoc hustle compared to Portland's laid-back vibe, and how landing a K01 grant let her walk through any university door she wanted, eventually bringing her to UCSF.

Nicole Paulk - 00:01:50: He's, like, old factory of my life when I was, like, during at night, feeling very lost. And the only problem was that, like, I hadn't taken the GRE because I was, like, all prepped for med school. So I was like, okay. No matter what, I need to, like, probably take a year off because I need to take the GRE because it was, like, about time to graduate and everything. So I was like, my then-boyfriend at the time had just gotten into dental school at OHSU in Portland. It's, like, the biggest university in Oregon. So I was like, uh, okay. How about this? Like, I will go down there and just, like, get a job in someone's lab as, like, a technician again just so I can, like, make money to help pay rent, and then I'll take the GRE. And that was, like, how I found myself in Portland. So moved from Washington to Oregon and went to Portland. And quite literally, this was like—I'm dating myself—I got that job off a Craigslist ad. Yeah. Now that's, like, how you would get trafficked or something. But back then, that's how you found jobs. I found a lab technician job on Craigslist. And for two weeks, I was just, like, looking through Craigslist, and this one seemed interesting and went and interviewed and really liked the lab. And it was in, like, a pretty new building on campus at OHSU. It was, like, close enough that I could walk without needing to take a bus. And so I was just like, perfect. It's walkable. They'll pay me money. It was just like—but, you know, same thing. Just like cleaning up the lab and, like, helping the students, the grad students and the postdocs when they just needed an extra set of hands and, like, doing, like, minipreps and just, like, little things like that. Ironically and funnily enough, just, like, had no idea that the lab was famous. Like, big-time famous. Because I didn't know that, like, my—my world was virology and, technically, also, like, atmospheric nanochemistry from my undergrad experience, but that was, like, my studies. So it was, like, atmospheric nanochemistry and virology, two very just wild things. And this was at the Stem Cell Center at OHSU. And if folks remember back in the day—remember when, like, stem cells were, like, the biggest buzzword you had ever heard, and it was just, like, stem cells were the future? It was everything. And the Oregon Stem Cell Center had just been spun up. They have—have all of this money, and it was just, like, big, bright, shiny, new, amazing. I didn't know anything about stem cells. I was just answering a Craigslist ad for a lab technician. So I didn't know the people in the lab. I didn't know the professor who was running the show on this. This was Markus Grompe, who's the director there. I just answered a Craigslist ad. And, like, I'm, like, in this lab and, you know, it's just still Portland. Right? Pacific Northwest, it's Portland. So people are chill. Right? They're in athleisure. People aren't like—you know, it's not New York. People aren't wearing suits. So everyone's just, like, very relaxed. It was still very high-stress, and, like, there was a lot of pressure. You could tell for people to really kind of achieve, but it wasn't crazy. It wasn't like New York style. So I wasn't a student yet. I was still just a technician, but, like, I would go to all the seminars because they were just open to the public. And everyone would refer to the professors by their first names, but, like, except him. It felt like everyone else would be like, "Oh, hey, Anne. Hey, Jane. Hey, whatever." And they'd be like, "Oh, Doctor Grompe." And I was like, "Maybe it's because—"

Jon Chee - 00:05:04: He's German. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:05:05: Yeah. Is this like a—like a cultural respect thing? Is it because he's male or is it because he's German or maybe he's just, like, really strict about honorifics or something? It just didn't cross my mind that homeboy was, like, real famous. It was just like, I will forever remember, like, this whole experience. Like, it was just so wild. So I'm like, I'm working with these, like, amazing postdocs and graduate students who are, like, elite. You know, their PhDs, they were publishing, like, Cell, Science, Nature papers, and they, like, interviewed and fought so hard to, like, get into his lab and to do research. And they're just, like, doing, you know, 9-9-6 child's play. Like, they were coming in and grinding and working on, like, the most amazing science I had ever heard of. And, like, they were just so creative and so thoughtful, and it was just, like, I love that lab, and I loved that time. And, like, everything was just so magical, and the lab had, like, culture before, like, culture became a thing you talked about. What is your lab's culture? We just had so much fun, and I had no idea he was famous. Like I said, I grew up in a small town where you just, like, treat everyone like people, treat everyone the same. And so, like, yes, his name was Doctor Markus Grompe, but, like, I called him Marky Mark. And we, like, had inside jokes, and we would, like, tease each other. And, like, I would leave whoopee cushions underneath his—you know, like, when you become a chair of a department, how they give you that wooden chair?

Jon Chee - 00:06:32: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:06:32: Like, classic wooden chair that, like, they get from, like, the chairs catalog or something. I don't know. But he had one of those chairs in his office, but, like, they're wood, so they're, like, kind of uncomfortable. So he got, like, a smooshie to put on it. And, like, I would sneak into his office, and I would put whoopee cushions under it. And every Friday at lab meeting, we would rotate, like, whose job it was to bring snacks. And so people—you know, you get whatever, a budget of $20 or something. So you get bagels or you get donuts or you get some sliced fruit or whatever. And whenever it was my week, I would, like, rotate it so I wouldn't do it that often so that he wouldn't, like, remember. But I would always do donut holes. You can get donut holes for way cheaper than donuts. Like, they'll practically just give you donut holes for free. It's like the trash. It's the—yeah.

Jon Chee - 00:07:12: Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:07:12: So you can get so many donut holes. And we had a huge lab. I mean, this was, like, 50 people or something. Like, this was a big lab. Like, 30 postdocs, half a dozen grad students, and just, like, an army of technicians and, like, med fellows that would be rotating through, and it's just massive. So I would get donut holes and coffee. And, like, I would fill the donut hole, and we'd—like this big, long conference table. And so there'd be, like, plates of doughnut holes all along the table. And I would tell everybody. I'm like, "Don't take the doughnuts in front of Markus because I'm gonna mess with them." And then I'd fill them with, like, Sriracha and mayonnaise and, like, nasty stuff. We would just play practical jokes on each other. And I had known—and again, I had no idea that homeboy was real famous. And I always tell this story because I just love it. It's so funny. I remember I went to his, like, administrative assistant one day, and I was just like, "Hey. I need to talk to Markus. Is he here?" She was just like, "Oh, no. He's busy. He'll be back tomorrow. He's taking some meetings with the President." And I'm like, "President of what? Like, the university? Some committee? Like a disease society? I need to talk to him about this experiment." She's like, "No. He's talking to the President." And I'm like, "Of what?" She's like, "Of the United States of America." I'm like, "What? Oh." She's like, "He's the stem cell adviser to the President." And I'm like, "What? Whoa." Like, what? And, like, you got—you're, like, shifting in your seat, and you're just like, "Is he famous?" And, like, it was just like—it hits you all at once, and you just—you, like, you realize, oh, wow. I have been being very inappropriate. Like, with, like, donut holes filled with Sriracha and whoopee cushions and calling him Marky Mark and, like, playing practical jokes. And I was so mad that he never told me that I, like, snuck into his office and was, like, waiting for him the next day and was just, like, arms crossed, like, all pouty, like, little brat style and was just like—and he's like, "What are you doing in here?" And I'm just like, "So you're famous? Yeah. Famous, and you never told me I'm embarrassing myself." And he was just, like, so sweet and, like, kinda smiled and was just like, "This is one of the things I like most about you is the fact that you didn't treat me special because you had no idea that I was famous."

Jon Chee - 00:09:33: Love that.

Nicole Paulk - 00:09:34: He's like, "It's one of the reasons why you're one of my favorite people is that you didn't know I was famous, and I love that about you." And then, like, fast forward, I ended up joining his lab and did a PhD in his lab. And, like, it was amazing, and it was, like, among my most fond memories ever, scientifically, was, like, just that, like, couple-year span of time where there was just, like, we had money to do really cool science, and the field was taking off, and the lab just had all the vibes. It was just so great. And we were working on really interesting things. Like, in my wildest dreams—beyond Siren, beyond whatever comes after Siren, beyond beyond in the deep beyond, like, in my retirement—I, like, would love to go back and get another PhD. I don't know if it could ever be like that. Like, maybe the PhD of the future will be different, but that, like, unstructured time because a PhD is just so different from a postdoc. But that, like, unstructured time where you're just smart enough to be dangerous, but you're not smart enough to, like, get yourself in, like, any real trouble. Like, in a postdoc, like, you're so close to becoming a professor that it's just—it becomes a grind, and it's just, like, so focused on your job and what needs to happen, and how can I strategically make this useful for my CV, and how can I leverage this, and you kind of corporatize it versus a PhD where it was just like this unstructured, unfettered, perfect, beautiful time where you just got to do science with your friends. And, you know, we had this huge lab too, so it was just so fun because it wasn't a competitive lab, but it was so big. All these people from, like, all these different cultures and places, you know, like, I grew up poor little farm kid. Like, I had never been to Italy or Germany or China, and there was just, like, all these foreign grad students and postdocs and, like, all their lived world experience that they brought. I was just, like, so fascinated by all these stories they would tell me about, like, where they came from. And I was just like, "Man, one day I wanna get on a plane and, like, I wanna go. I wanna go somewhere like that." And just being in this big, like, multicultural lab working on, like, big, gnarly, cool stuff, and it wasn't competitive. And people were helping each other and, like, constantly collaborating. And I was just like, man. I didn't know it then, but, like, I know it now. Those were the golden, pure, best days. And I—in my retirement, I, like, fantasize about going back and getting—and I don't know what it would be in, something cool of the moment. But, like, I fantasize about going back and getting another PhD, which, like, breaks my heart when I hear about people talk about, I think, the more common experience many people have, which is that, like, PhDs are a nightmare.

Jon Chee - 00:12:10: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:12:11: Which is that, like, you know, they can be awful where you got, like, a horrible PI who's doing horrible things and your science doesn't work and everything that's crazy and, you know, yada yada yada. But, like, man, that was not my experience. Those were just, like, the most pure and beautiful years. And I really wanna go back and get, like, a second or a third or a fourth PhD. Yeah. That's my dream. I wanna go get another PhD. I miss it so much.

Jon Chee - 00:12:35: I love that. The fact that this all came from a Craigslist ad is, like, gnarly. And, well, this is just, like, a commentary on Craigslist. Yes. You can get scammed on Craigslist, but you can also find, like, gems.

Nicole Paulk - 00:12:48: Yeah. There are absolute, like, amazing things that can happen. Whatever. It could be Craigslist. It could be Reddit. It could be Twitter. It could be wherever. Like, whatever the people's place is, it's like an often piece of advice that I kind of give to young folks, whether they're entrepreneurs or they're scientists or whatever. It's just your life doesn't have to be scripted. Like, it's okay if your CV doesn't have that you did a summer internship at NASA on it. It's okay. Yep. Like, really cool things can happen in an unscripted life where you kind of let the chips fall and just, like, follow the interesting paths and the signs that the world has made for you and, like, be open to opportunity and, like, take risks and do cool stuff, but, like, your whole life doesn't have to be scripted.

Jon Chee - 00:13:32: Absolutely. And this is not for a job, but just like a Craigslist, like, come-up that I had. It was the apartment that we were looking for. We're, like, Craigslist hunting for an apartment, and the Craigslist ad definitely looked like a scam. The photo was, like, maybe from, like, in the eighties, and it was, like, grainy. It looked like a flip phone took a photo of it.

Nicole Paulk - 00:13:55: Oh, yeah.

Jon Chee - 00:13:56: But it was only—the photo was only of a corner of the kitchen and nothing else. It was weird. It was just like, "Why would you advertise, like, an apartment this way?" And it said it was, like, a one-bedroom, one-bath. And my wife and I were just like, "Let's give this a shot. Like, let's just see." Roll up and, first off, two bedrooms.

Nicole Paulk - 00:14:19: Small detail.

Jon Chee - 00:14:20: Yeah. Small detail. The landlord was, like, "I didn't feel comfortable calling it two bedrooms because it only had one window." So and, like, technically, you—I guess, you have to have two windows for it to be deemed a room. He's like, "I'm just calling one." And then everything inside was, like, not, like, from, like, a dated photo. It was, like, updated. Like—

Nicole Paulk - 00:14:38: Full reno.

Jon Chee - 00:14:39: But yeah. Yeah. I was, like, "What?" And rent-controlled.

Nicole Paulk - 00:14:43: Yo. Yeah.

Jon Chee - 00:14:44: And I was just like, "I could have gotten robbed?" Like, this is not a suggestion that you should just go look at the most sus Craigslist ads and go—like, but you will find gems from time to time on Craigslist. It's not all bad.

Nicole Paulk - 00:14:56: Yeah. Occasionally, you gotta take some risks and, like, let the carpet unfold. Let it unroll and just see where it goes.

Jon Chee - 00:15:02: Exactly. Exactly. So it sounds like you're having an absolute blast at your PhD, and you talked about the difference of a PhD and a postdoc. Can you talk about that transition for you?

Nicole Paulk - 00:15:15: I finished at OHSU, and I went down to Stanford to join—at that point, like, I was all in on gene therapy. Like, the PhD was all in gene therapy. So, like, using viruses as medicines, and I was all in. And the field still wasn't particularly popular yet, but it was on its way. And I went down and joined the—there's a gene therapy program at Stanford. It's in Mark Kay's lab. And still didn't have a grand vision of, like, "I'm definitely gonna work on this project" or "I'm definitely gonna work on this." I was just like, "I wanna do something in gene therapy. I want it to be—I want it to be bigger." I could kind of see the tea leaves that, like, this had all the potential to be, like, the next wave of medicine.

Jon Chee - 00:15:56: Was this just in, like, an email to Stanford, or were you, like, scouting out other, like, postdocs?

Nicole Paulk - 00:16:02: Oh, no. I definitely applied at a bunch of different places where they were either, like, doing applied virology or they were doing viral gene therapy specifically. And I actually almost took a position at the University of Washington, but I have heard this rumor that I think actually is true to this day. But I've heard this rumor at the time that, like, if you do a postdoc at a place, they won't hire you to be a professor there. You have to go do a postdoc somewhere else, and then you could get hired at the place you go.

Jon Chee - 00:16:31: I've heard that too. Yep.

Nicole Paulk - 00:16:32: And I was like, "I really wanna be a professor at the University of Washington in Seattle." That was the plan. That was the dream. I was like, "I wanna be a professor at the University of Washington." I'm from Washington. So, like, I wanted to be a Husky so bad, and that was the plan. So I was like, "Well, I can't go there. So I need to go somewhere else, and then I need to come back." And I was very much a card-carrying "West Coast, Best Coast" girl. So I wasn't leaving the West Coast.

Jon Chee - 00:16:58: Yep. Yep.

Nicole Paulk - 00:16:59: And so, like, I interviewed all the big schools along the West Coast, and Stanford was just—I mean, if any—if you've ever visited Stanford's campus, you know, it's like the clouds part. You're just like, "Wow."

Jon Chee - 00:17:09: Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:17:10: I didn't know they made colleges that look like this. Like, it's just so beautiful and so big, and there was just so much going on. And it just felt like the biggest cheat code because you didn't have to apply to get in the way that, like, a student does where, like, you have tests, you have to get scores, you have to apply and interview. Like, you just talk to the professor. And if they're like, "Yeah. You cool," then you come. So I was like, "Oh my God. I could just go to Stanford and not even have to apply." So as soon as I found someone at Stanford who was willing to take me and, like, confirming, I'm like, "Just to be really clear, I don't have to, like, apply or anything? You and I just talk, and, like, that's it? If you say it's cool, I can just, like, move?"

Jon Chee - 00:17:53: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:17:54: "Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Like, just you and I agree, and then that's it." I was like, "This is insane. Uh, like, this is just, like, mind-blowing that, like, I can go to Stanford, and it's just like you and I just chatted about it." So I was like, "Alright. This is fine. I'm gonna go live down at Stanford at, like, the most beautiful place I'd ever seen at that point in my life on Earth." Because I was not a well-traveled person. There are more beautiful—but at that point, I was just like, "This is the most beautiful place on Earth I've ever been, and it's full of the biggest nerds I've ever met. And I'm gonna go there for a few years, and I'm gonna come back, and I'm gonna go be a professor at the University of Washington. I'm gonna be a Husky. Oh my God." And so I go down to Stanford, and it was just—it was all the things you wanted because it was just, like, mega nerds. There's, like, nerds and there's mega nerds, and there's just, like, Stanford-level nerds who were just, like, on a whole other—

Jon Chee - 00:18:40: Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:18:41: —level. And there was the first time where I really started to experience that bigger city, like, hustle-grind culture where people are really starting to not just think about their science from a perspective of, like, "How can I get this into Cell, Science, or Nature?" Because we definitely had that at OHSU. So I still had that in my PhD, but it wasn't every minute of your day was like that. It was like that when you were in lab. But then when you went home, it's still Portland and, like, you know, "Keep Portland Weird." Like, everybody's doing their weird stuff going on. So, you know, you had your weird little old hobbies and all the things you were working on, and, you know, it was just a different vibe versus, like, at Stanford, like, even when you left the lab, it was still just, like, hustle-grind. Like, "What are you doing to up your game, to make your CV better? Like, how could you 'two birds, one stone' this? And, like, how can you get in front of these big people?" And everyone at a startup and everyone at a side hustle and all things, and it was just like a very—it was the first time kind of being exposed to that. And I, like, both loved it and hated it at the same time. I loved it because I had so much energy, and I was just like, "Yeah. These people get it." So from that perspective, I just loved it and thrived because it was, like, not weird to wanna work twenty-four hours a day and do cool stuff because everyone else also had that much energy. I think they were channeling it for different reasons than I was.

Jon Chee - 00:19:00: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:20:01: Like, "I need to burn this off. Otherwise, I'm gonna crawl out of my skin. Uh, like, I'm trying to beef up my CV." But, yeah, it, like, scratched the itch in just the right way to be somewhere like that, but it was also damaging from the perspective of you see how that, like, optimism culture can get a bit poisonous where it's just like, "How can I optimize every last minute of my day so that, like, everything is perfect and optimum? Like, how many different apps can I have on my phone that will, like, remind me of things and better schedule my time, and how can I get the most sleep from the least hours, and what is the fastest way to work out so that I can spend the least time working out so that I can spend more time?" Or it was just, like, optimizing culture and kind of how I think poisonous that can become if you take it too far. And that kind of mixed with the real-world pressure of, like, for the first time being, like, "This is the end. Like, you do have to go get a big kid job."

Jon Chee - 00:20:50: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:20:51: Yeah. Academia forever as, like, a student or a trainee or a fellow or whatever you wanna call it—like, seeing the horizon and being able to see it and being, like, "You've got maybe three more years."

Jon Chee - 00:21:02: Yep. Yep.

Nicole Paulk - 00:21:03: "You—you gotta go get a job. So, like, what is it?" And you start getting ready for that and that time pressure of realizing that you finally had to have a plan.

Jon Chee - 00:21:12: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:21:13: And you needed a real actual plan of what you were gonna do, what were the steps gonna be in order to get you there. And so that was weird versus, like, every other period of life where it was just like this, like, unstructured and unfettered and "I'm so wonderful." And so that, I think, is a really hard thing for postdocs to grapple with and that, you know—bless, like, the academic culture, which is that, like, you have to become a professor. Otherwise, you are an abject failure, and nothing matters if you are not an academician. And there's no possible way to do good science if it's not in academia at a big D1 or Ivy League school and everything else is terrible. If you were to become a teaching professor—gross. Even if you got a research professorship, but it was at, like, a D2 school—what if you had to be at community college? Like, God forbid. Like, I don't agree with that, but, like, that was what was pushed at you. And, like, much less—my God. What if you left academia and you went and did something out of industry or you went and did something with the government or you became part of some consortia or you went and did policy in DC? You know? It's just like—like this heretic stuff, like, "Oh my—" or what if you just, like, stopped doing science and did something else? So, you know, just like that crazy pressure of, like, those postdoc years—whether implicit or not. It was just a wild time, and we just really don't—and still don't—do a good job of preparing people for that really weird moment in your training. Whatever it is you end up doing, I think now we are getting better about talking about that with trainees. Funny to call someone with a PhD—someone who has a doctorate—yeah, thank you very much—a "trainee," but, yeah, it was like a weird time. And then to, like, you make it. Right? Like, I got the papers. I had all the collaborations. I had the big shiny grants from, like, the NIH and the Gates Foundation, and I got a K01. So Stanford is one of, like, one or two schools that if you get a K01, which is only for professors—this is a grant for professors—they won't give you the title like non-tenure track professor or adjunct professor or assistant adjunct professor or teaching pro or whatever. They won't give you that. They give you the title "instructor," which everyone thinks means "teacher," but you're not—you teach nothing here; you're doing student research. So I, like, got this grant, and they had to make me an instructor. And they're just kind of like, "Okay. There you go." And you're like, "Alright. You made it. Yeah. Yeah. Papers. I've got the science. I've got the data. I've got the money. I've got the titles." I was, like, winning awards just like on a clip. It was like, "I made it." And then it was just kind of like, "Nobody cares."

Jon Chee - 00:23:56: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole Paulk - 00:23:57: "Nobody cares. Get back to work. Publish more. Get more money." And switched over to UCSF and brought my K01 over there. And it was just like—yeah. It was just wild. And, like, fast forward, I didn't end up knowing—not that any—how could anyone know that COVID was coming? Right? But, like, you know, it was so weird to be starting at UCSF. It's just like this unbelievable, big, suity, amazing school. You got this little space. Right? You've got your—whatever—your two or three little benches that are yours, and you've got, like, maybe a couple technicians, and you've got this grant. You've got your—you've got your little K01 grant, and you're like, "Alright. We're gonna be somebody, and we're gonna make it. I've got a plan." And, like, right away, they're like—I think, like, it was like nine months in or something—COVID hit.

Jon Chee - 00:24:39: Oh, shit.

Nicole Paulk - 00:24:40: And that just threw the whole world upside down. And I had not been at UCSF very long. And it's, like, one of those moments where you, like, realize the difference between a public and a private university. And, like, UCSF is public versus I had just left Stanford, which was private. And, like, all of my friends who were still down at Stanford, whether they were postdocs or grad students or professors, whoever they were, like, they went back, like, within single-digit weeks. Right? Six feet—remember, the six feet of social distancing, and they had, like, stickers on the floor? Like, "You can't stand—it's within this person six feet away," and you just wore a mask because you were just allowed to go back because they were a private school, and they had to set their own rules versus the UCSF. And they were—

Jon Chee - 00:25:20: —nope.

Nicole Paulk - 00:25:21: Oh. Yep. I was like—months went on and, like, still wasn't allowed to go back and go back and go back and just—like, the founding of Siren was because of COVID. It started some work where we were, like, trying—still all in on gene therapy. Like, "Gene therapy is life." And I was just like, "Okay."

Outro - 00:25:41: That's all for this episode of the Biotech Startups Podcast featuring Nicole Paulk. Join us next time for part three when Nicole recounts arriving at UCSF and growing frustrated watching every gene therapy company chase the same single-disease payload model, asking whether one AAV vial could treat dozens of diseases at once, and then COVID shutting her lab down right as early data started to look promising, leaving her with one very sneaky idea. If you enjoy the show, subscribe, leave a review, or share it with a friend. Thanks for listening, and see you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for the Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service, or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.