Intro - 00:00:06: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. Last time, Philip took us from a rural Indiana upbringing to the moment he discovered he loved molecular biology but didn't want to live at the bench. If you missed it, start with part one. In part two, Philip picks up the phone. He talks his way into Frazier Healthcare in Seattle, gets a front-row seat to how great investors actually make decisions, and starts forming the belief that would define his whole career. Relationships beat transactions, and getting back to people even with a no is nonnegotiable.
Jon Chee - 00:01:09: So as you were about to graduate, did you know what you wanted to do?
Philip Borden - 00:01:14: I did some things that helped me learn what I didn't wanna do. And so I worked in the, you know, department of molecular cancer biology while I was there for two or three summers at Duke, and it turned out I wasn't very good in the lab. So again, I really like this, but I found the process really tough because mostly because I was impatient. It takes so long to get the kind of feedback loops in science. You're fumbling around trying to figure out, well, why doesn't this experiment work? I don't know. No one else knows. And it's this process of kind of groping around in the dark that is so hard.
And for me, those feedback loops were really tough, and I really thought long and hard and filled out some PhD applications to go to grad school in molecular biology. And I ended up just not submitting anything because I was just like, that's not what I wanna do with the next seven years of my life or eight or whatever it is. And I'm so glad I had that experience of trying something out, realizing I'm not sure this is a fit for me, and course correcting before kind of going down what's a long, arduous path.
Jon Chee - 00:02:15: Some people end up going on that journey, and they push off. And then, like, sometimes they do it, and it could be a painful one. I had a moment where I thought I was gonna go to law school. I did a little stint at a law firm slash consulting firm, learned quickly what I didn't wanna do. Love the legal profession. I do a lot of legal work now, but practicing law is a completely different thing.
Philip Borden - 00:02:37: Being measured by increments of 10 is not how I wanna live my life. Yeah.
Jon Chee - 00:02:41: No. It's rough. It's super rough. Like, I just remember, like, logging in the Juris and just being like, alright. Oh, god. We just got abilities, like or what did I do at, I don't know, like, 11:39.
Philip Borden - 00:02:54: It's a tough career, but I think, you know, again, just kind of realizing, what am I gravitating towards? What resonates with me? And kinda listening to those signals early on is kinda I mean, again, it's more like it's almost more sort of gut feel than anything, but, like, hey. This doesn't feel like me. You know? It doesn't feel like my authentic self, how I really wanna be spending my time. I don't regret those decisions. So all of my classmates were otherwise going to med school, and I was thinking, you know, I love this molecular biology stuff. Okay. What do I do about it? Well, I basically talked my way into working at a venture capital firm, and I'm literally talking my way into it.
Unpack that. I'm very curious. So I was graduating. I had my first job, which was a very brief one in finance, but I was wanting to kinda get into venture capital because that felt like the place to be. This is what, '98, '99, you know, something like that. I wanted to learn about investing. I wanted to learn about how do I back interesting companies. What's that like? And again, I didn't know anything, but it just seemed cool.
Literally, what I did was I used Google, which was brand new at the time and I Googled like, okay, biotech VC firms. I created a list of 30 some odd biotech VC firms and I picked up the phone and I started calling and I said, I'm Philip Borden, I've got a degree in molecular biology. I've got a little bit of finance background. I'm happy to work on anything that you need. And so I sort of talked my way into this firm out in Seattle called Frazier Healthcare, which is one of the premier life science VCs in the world and I connected with someone there. They happened to be looking at the right time and I said, all I need is pay me enough that I can cover my rent to like some food. I mean, it really set me on the right path for my entire the entire rest of my career to kind of take that job at Frazier.
Jon Chee - 00:04:32: God. I love that. And I think this is critically important for anyone listening that the value of picking up the phone, it's still incredibly valuable. I think with all the AI stuff, picking up the phone has become more valuable because everyone can fire out a billion emails. Like, everybody hear that.
Philip Borden - 00:04:53: It's so funny you say that. I couldn't agree more, Jon. Like, it's the personal relationships now trumping what can easily be, you know, an email or a blog post or whatever having these kind of personal connections. And so, you know, I'm regularly picking up the phone and talking with founders that we've met and, you know, brokers that we might be working with and whatever, and I use the phone a lot more.
For our team, it is not a natural motion for the late twenties, early thirties set. They are not used to the phone and there are nuances that you can get. You can smooth over tough messages on the phone. There's all sorts of things that you can do on a phone call that you're never gonna get in an email. Never. I've had more things go awry on emails where something gets taken out of context, whatever. And if I'm on a phone call, I can pick that up. I can course correct. It's a better medium for these kinds of messages.
Jon Chee - 00:05:45: Absolutely. It's hard. Like, I mean, it was actually my cofounder, Jeff, that, like, push like, I used to just be, like, email only. Like, I'm a lab guy, so I'm like, I wanna talk to everybody. What? Yeah. And he really pushed me to just, like, pick up the phone in early days too. Like, if you're starting a business, that's what you gotta do. You gotta pick up the phone and try to sell. And I always encourage anyone, even if you're a bench scientist, like, literally taking some sort of role that teaches you how to pick up the phone and have a conversation is some of the most invaluable skills you can have, like, ever like raising money, you're selling. Like, hiring, you're selling. Literally everything. Marketing is selling at scale. It's all sell like, you gotta learn it.
Philip Borden - 00:06:29: When you say selling, you know, people sometimes hear, that's like a dirty word. That's pejorative. Yeah. That's, like, achy. No. It's communicating. It's how do you stand out? How do you differentiate yourself? How do you develop those relationships? That's what you're really doing. And, again, there's in person. There's no substitute for being in person. Again, video conferences can be great, can be useful, but in our business at LabShares, we really want people on-site because you can pick up on, okay, what's the vibe like? You're never gonna be able to get that in an email or a blog post.
Jon Chee - 00:07:00: And body language is real too. That's another thing. And so I completely agree, and I think and, also, you're right. Selling has a negative connotation in science. Like, I get it. You go into science to kind of, like, separate church and state. You're like the purity of science with business on the other side, but it's like it doesn't have to be antagonistic. I often find just like selling, you're doing exactly right. It's communication, but it also is mostly listening. It's mostly listening and asking questions, the right questions, which I think is critically important. Because, like, again, what I'm seeing in, like, how things are shifting is, like, it's not really about having the answers anymore. It's all about asking the right questions. Because, like, the answers are in your pocket, but only if you ask the right questions. If you ask the wrong questions, just, like, it's all for naught. I love how you ended that gig off just, like, picking up the phone.
Philip Borden - 00:07:49: You know, a lot of call, like it was good though because, I mean, it's embarrassing a little bit. I mean, like, you are in a position of, like, being kind of vulnerable. Hey, I'm looking for something. I'm willing to kind of do all the grunt work that you need. But by the same token, like it also teaches you some real humility. And at the time, I didn't know anything. What I could offer is I'm willing to work hard. I'm willing to learn. I'm willing to be a good contributor. That's all I had to offer at that time and they were the ones who were offering me this opportunity.
And like I said, Frazier was such an amazing place to work. And I mean, the biggest thing that I learned there was like, how do you have a work culture that makes it so everybody wants to be there and like is fun? It's a fun place to be. It's a fun place to work. People joked around. People work really hard and were really smart. But the biggest thing that I learned from working there was they had created an environment that I got to know the people that I worked with, you know, Alan Frazier, Nader Naini, and Patrick Herron and a bunch of folks that like, but they were all really funny and like good people to work with, cared about me, cared about my career, but, like, also could joke around and create this culture that it made it fun to be at work. And that's what we really try hard at LabShares to do that a little bit. You know, one of our core values we list is LabShares is a fun place to be and a fun place to work. And having that kind of environment is just so important.
Jon Chee - 00:09:08: Absolutely. And I guess before I double click on the Frazier learning experience on the investing side, how was moving to Seattle?
Philip Borden - 00:09:16: Yeah. It was great. I love Seattle. So I sort of talked my way into this job. They said, yeah, you know, show up in, like, a week and a half or something. So I packed everything up, found an apartment, stayed on a friend's couch for a couple weeks or something, found a place right next to the Space Needle. I mean, you know, god, how cool was that? I was, you know, right downtown and spent almost three, like, awesome years there.
And Seattle at the time was, you know, again, this is late nineties, early two thousands. So, okay, Microsoft, Amazon was kind of getting started then. Obviously, from the biotech side, there was a ton going on there. So and at the same time, I was there during if you remember, the World Trade Organization protests were going on there. So, I remember vividly we didn't go into work the day of those protests, which were turned quite violent. My apartment was close enough downtown that like the tear gas smoke kind of came into my apartment. And it was an interesting place to be for a couple of years and I loved being in Seattle. In many ways, Seattle and Boston have a lot in common. I mean, similar sizes, both on the water, both great university towns. You know? Like, there's a lot of similarities between the two and maybe feel, in Boston, where I am now, much more at home.
Jon Chee - 00:10:24: Yeah. I love the Pacific Northwest and Seattle. Like, buddies of mine are, like, settled down. They went to SU, so we always make it a point to go visit. And, also, if you can go in the summer, nothing better.
Philip Borden - 00:10:34: No place better than Seattle in the summer. I a 100% agree. And I don't know. Seattle gets a bad rap. Oh, the rain rain isn't that bad. And the summers are just gorgeous, and there's no place I'd rather be in the summer than in Seattle.
Jon Chee - 00:10:47: So yeah. I've never seen a city just so happy during the summer. My god, everyone is in a good mood. Like, everybody.
Philip Borden - 00:10:57: Everyone's out. You walk along Pike Place Market or Mariners game or something. It's a great place to be.
Jon Chee - 00:11:02: So much fun. Okay. So you're an undergrad with a biology degree. You're now at a premier venture firm with no experience in venture investing. It must have been a baptism of fire. Like, talk a little bit about just, like, the early days of Frazier. Like, how did you, like, learn the ropes? Like, what were some, like, just, like, core things, like investing? You know, honestly, the foundational elements that you learned while you're there.
Philip Borden - 00:11:26: I mean, first off, yeah, I was drinking through a fire hose, to say the least. You walk in again having very little background and just kind of this hunger to learn, and that's that was my most valuable asset. I was willing to learn. And part of that was I had the opportunity to sit in on all the partner meetings. I mean, oh my god, what an amazing place to learn like how people with decades of experience think about making investments. What are the questions that they ask? What are they skeptical of? What gets them excited? And so, being in many ways a fly on the wall, talk about an educational experience.
And then you kind of combine that with every day I've got three new opportunities that come across your desk and part of my job was like I was the guy screening some of these things that came in. And so, you had a case study every three hours that came in that you had the opportunity to learn from, and then you had the opportunity to have entrepreneurs come on-site and meet them and learn from them too. So, all of those things were amazing learning experiences.
I mean, I think foundationally, though, the venture world is a world known with lots of personalities, and I say that personally. There are big egos. There are people who don't always treat founders in the way that, frankly, founders should be treated. And I think one of the biggest foundational lessons from my time at Frazier was the respect for and appreciation for, my god, how hard it is to be an entrepreneur. You know, entrepreneurs come to you in a position of vulnerability. They need some capital. They need a partner. And how do you honor that? And, you know, again, you're gonna be saying no way more than you're saying yes, but how do you get back to people? How do you talk to entrepreneurs? How do you ask tough questions in a way that doesn't come across as being disrespectful or being a jerk. And I think that was foundationally. Again, later on, I invested in lots of founder-owned businesses. I think that's probably the biggest lesson that I took from it is just how do you honor that entrepreneurial spirit, treat them well, and create a culture that is respectful while still getting all the answers that you need?
Jon Chee - 00:13:28: Yeah. No. I mean, that's incredible. And I think the point that really, really stood out to me that you what you just said is, like, founders are coming to you in a kind of vulnerable space. And, like, as an investor, venture, or otherwise, you're basically kind of like a gatekeeper of sorts. And a lot of capital allocators that can get to your head can kind of create, like, a kind of, like, sort of god complex, which I think is just, like, counterproductive. And for me, this was formative for me because in the early days of Excedr, I literally went door to door, like, physically door to door to the bank headquarters down in San Francisco and was basically begging for loans. Just begging for loans. I was just like I was like, I need to buy some instrumentation. I was like, bad. And some of them were just too good.
Philip Borden - 00:14:12: Yeah. You weren't big enough. And as an entrepreneur, I bet you could pick up on their attitude to you in about ten seconds.
Jon Chee - 00:14:20: For sure. Really, really quickly, and I bring that to Excedr now. We just do the opposite of that. Because we know when people are coming to us, it's because there's a need. We have to do diligence, so that you're also, like, opening up everything. Right? It's very much a vulnerable state. Respective of time and respective of the hard work. We have to say no all the time. We're in credit, but it's always thinking about just making sure we're, like, respectful all the way through and get you to a quick no and a quick yes. We're not gonna waste time, and we'll give you feedback quickly. We'll tell you these are things that we are seeing on our side, and this will be pointed out everywhere else you go. If you get this fixed, we can make something happen. That's totally cool. And I think sometimes I can see some frustration from founders. The venture side is a little bit different than what we do, but, like, when you just get this no and, like, you know, but why? How do I get better? And they kind of dance around it. You don't know what they're really trying to say, and you're just like, well, I wasted my time. And you're like, that's the worst feeling.
Philip Borden - 00:15:14: Yeah. I remember one of the conversations I had with one of the senior partners at Frazier. Again, I'm the junior guy and part of my job was to say no to some people who we weren't gonna pursue any further. And I remember one time I was busy. I think it took me a week and a half, two weeks or something to kind of, you know we made the decision, and I hadn't gotten back to a founder. And I remember a senior partner kind of pulled me aside and kind of explained, hey. This is why this is so important for us to get back to founders, and part of our culture is we're responsive. And founders are always gonna like that answer, but it is still so much better to get that no and have it be a closed loop as opposed to dangling out there. You never hear anything back. So, yeah, that lesson really stuck with me from that time.
Jon Chee - 00:15:58: Absolutely. And another thing that, you know, stood out and what you pointed out is as I was doing the soliciting of loans from these banks, again, I didn't deserve my first loan. Like, I really didn't. It's kind of a thing where it's like your first loan, your first job, your first anything. You usually don't deserve it.
Philip Borden - 00:16:16: Do you say that because not enough experience, didn't know what you were doing? What made you think you didn't deserve it?
Jon Chee - 00:16:22: Yeah. That's a great question. I think I had some track record, but I was like, for the amount of money I was asking for, I was like, oh. Like, it's it was, like, definitely a big ask, like, just, like, on a pure quantity basis. Also, the reason why it stood out to me that your father was, like, a lender to agricultural businesses is because, like, the relationship banker can get to know the business intimately well, and they know the cash flows of the business, the macro. They know everything about it, so they understand the risk and they're willing to put capital behind it. Being in San Francisco, you've got to be a sponsored backed business to get credit usually.
Philip Borden - 00:17:01: Mhmm.
Jon Chee - 00:17:01: Yep. No sponsor here. Literally just me, my PG, what are they gonna do? Take my jeans? Like, I didn't deserve it. Like, if I was flush with cash, would have been a very different story. So, like, we had track record. So, like, basically, the first piece of equipment I bought with life savings did use that to build the track record to go solicit the loans, subscale. Like, subscale, no sponsor, you know, just little old me. So that's kind of where I thought, like, I didn't deserve it. Because, like, out here, you gotta have, like, a venture capitalist backing you or a private equity or some sponsor. Like, you gotta have a sponsor. It's really, like, hard. And then the lender was just like, no. We're gonna give it a shot. And I was like, hallelujah. Like like and that's the thing. Like, those, like, pivotal moments. Right? Like, you landing at Frazier. You're like, I don't know. Just pick up the phone. And it's like and it took a chance on me.
Philip Borden - 00:17:49: Yeah. No. It's interesting how much of your career or candidly your life is the sort of butterfly moments of, you know, small little changes have this really outsized impact later on. So I definitely think a lot about, what if I hadn't reached anyone at Frazier that morning, or had you not gone to the banker at the time that you did? You know, it'd be a very different world. So
Jon Chee - 00:18:08: Yeah. And there's an aspect of luck to it, for sure. Like, there's aspect of luck, but, like, you've gotta manufacture that luck. You can't get lucky if you don't give it a shot. Right? You know, it's kind of this thing, like, you don't have a chance to win the Powerball unless you at least get one ticket. And I'm not saying that your expected return is gonna be great on a Powerball, but it's kind of the thing. You gotta be in the game. And it's very low risk to just go pick up the phone, knock on doors. Also, too, something that we're doing on our side, handwritten letters. People forgot about that. Your LLM is not doing a handwritten letter to someone and, like, people forget.
Philip Borden - 00:18:40: We've been doing something recently. So when we win a new customer, LabShares, for their lab space that they're gonna start with, we have a ribbon cutting ceremony. We do photos. We make it a big deal because for a lot of the companies that come to LabShares, you know, it's not always their first lab that they're setting up, but even if it's not, like, this is a big deal for them. Their baby is going to be in this lab, in this space, and they're going to be spending a lot of hours in it. And so, again, kind of honoring that in the form of, for us, a ribbon cutting ceremony where we do photos, we post them on social media. They can post it on social media. They can show it to their board. That little thing makes a huge difference to how customers view us and how we get off on the right foot with the customer.
Jon Chee - 00:19:25: Yep. Be like, care first. You always gotta care first. At least that's my philosophy.
Outro - 00:19:31: That's a wrap on part two with Philip Borden. Next time, Philip drives 3,000 miles across I-90 to Harvard Business School, falls in love with the case method and with a classmate, and heads back into investing where an early solo deal nearly comes apart before it becomes the best return of his career. Enjoy the show. Leave a quick review. It genuinely helps. Catch you in part three. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service, or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.
