Shekhar Mitra - InnoPreneur & P&G - Part 1

Intro - 00:00:01: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee.

Jon - 00:00:23: My guest today is Shekhar Mitra, former Senior Vice President of Global Innovation and Chief of Innovation at Procter & Gamble, and current President and Founder of InnoPreneur, a strategic advisory firm that enables development of innovation capabilities, ideation, and organizational development for Fortune 500 corporations and new ventures. Prior to Entrepreneur, Shekhar spent 29 years at Procter & Gamble, where he worked his way up from staff scientist to senior vice president of global innovation and chief of innovation, becoming a part of P&G's top leadership team and a member of the CEO's Global Leadership Council. Shekhar's time at P&G paints a successful entrepreneurial roadmap for those looking to learn, grow, and innovate within large corporations. Post-retirement from P&G, Shekhar has spent several years as a board member and strategic advisor to several Fortune 500 corporations, new ventures, and private equity companies, developing transformational new ideas, business strategies, and organization capabilities to drive growth. With over 50 patents awarded in different fields, Shekhar is an expert with an exceptional track record in creating and developing game-changing technology platforms and formulating disruptive innovation strategies, whose extensive background in R&D offers unique insights that listeners can benefit from. Over the next four episodes, we cover a wide range of topics, including Shekhar's upbringing within a joint family, his time at IIT, Columbia, and Yale, his experience working with the FDA, his move from academia to Procter & Gamble, and his work with the Cincinnati Art Museum and the Society of Asian Scientists and Engineers. Today, we'll chat about Shekhar's early years, his upbringing in a multi-generational household, and the values it instilled in him. We'll also discuss his journey through grad school, the groundbreaking research he conducted investigating complex biological systems, and his diverse experiences in New York City, from intense lab work to exploring the city's vibrant cultural scene. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of the Biotech Startups Podcast. Shekhar, thank you for coming on the podcast. It's good to see you again.

 Shekhar - 00:02:14: It's a pleasure.

Jon - 00:02:15: So as we're doing our homework and thinking about a fun place to start, we always believe here at Excedr and The Biotech Starters Podcast that the early days are always very formative for one's kind of journey and habits that have been built. And we thought a fun place to start was really just the early days. Can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how it influenced your leadership style and business philosophy?

Shekhar - 00:02:42: Yeah, you know, good question, because I think. I had a very, very interesting upbringing, somewhat different from many of my friends. I grew up in a joint family. My parents were immigrants from India because that was the time of the war, 1947-50s, you know. And my father was an economist and had gotten through the Indian administrative services and become an officer. But he also took care of his brothers because they were all orphaned at the age of my father's age of 17. And then he had brothers, you know, like 15, 12 and 7. And so they were all part of that family then. And my father was married. And. My mother was quite young when she got married, probably in 1920, you know. And I had siblings, you know, three of my brothers. And, you know, so the whole family lived in a big house with small rooms, but six or seven rooms and a kitchen. And it was a common kitchen, common setup. And my mother, being the eldest amongst the family in terms of my aunts and everyone, took charge. And also my aunts all pitched in. They each had their role. You know, it was very roles and responsibilities driven. And, you know, it was very important. What I observed were the values of a joint family, right? If my father being the eldest of the lot and the head of the family, of this joint family, he set values through examples, you know. So right on time for dinner, everyone met, right? There was only two cards, one from the family side, one from the government, because my father was using the government card. And everyone had to take turns. So it was almost like a sign-up sheet. Who's going where? So it was like an organization that was in harmony, but oftentimes it broke apart because their emotions fly. Hey, you know, I didn't get this or that, or, you know, my choice was not met. And so now it, you know, I look back and I say, it's hilarious, you know? I see that in organizations all the time. Right? But steadfast values driven from the head and everyone collaborating was key to success and harmony and lots of fun and joy. When that broke apart, and there were internal feuds. You know, one aunt talking about the other aunt to my mother. Which I, you know, could over here. Things fell apart. And my mother had to often go in and do that. And you know what? I don't want to pretend that my mother or my parents were the do it good and every time right. I felt growing up, certain times I pointed out to my mother, I remember saying, you know, My aunt is right. Why are you not listening and blaming her for this? Which is very interesting dynamic. I never felt like, you know, my mother was the holy person all the time. I learned from her. So I learned my first principles of leadership and management at home. And then I was asked when I played cricket at a very young age, you know, and my brothers, my siblings really took care of me that way. And my mother passed away very soon. I mean, well, I shouldn't say soon, but at the age of 15, I lost my mother. And my father never got remarried, ever. You know? And the joint family went their own ways because my uncle got a job, had to be transferred to Bangalore, you know, Silicon Valley. I swear, you know, he was in the arms factory, superintendent. And then my other uncle who was working in the government in Calcutta got transferred. So each one went their own ways. And my brothers took care of me because they felt like I was the youngest. And there's a huge difference, 12 years difference between me and my older brother, right? And my mother passed away. And there was no woman in the family, really, when my aunts went away and my mother passed away. And I used to play cricket. And, you know, at a very young age, they got me involved in sports to keep me away from trouble. And I learned, I took the same lessons in sports, Jon, you know. I said, look, you know, very important for me to work with the bowler and the batsman and the fielder. As a result of which, you know, not to toot my horn, but I did play very well and I became captain of the school team, you know, and then went on to play in college. And so that lesson that I learned growing up, you know, and it was free floating time and nobody really guided me to say you have to do science or you have to be like your father, economics or whatever. My mother always, before she passed away, said, you know, you should be top notch government officer or a lawyer, you know, or a judge. You know, that was her image. Prestigious, you know. Never said, hey, you got to become an engineer or a scientist, you know. So very free flowing from that standpoint, I could develop, you know, very externally focused and internally learning how to work in a family setting like that. And not only survive, but thrive, you know. I'm taking that lesson back to real life, external life. I reflect on it and I said, lots of that. I was telling my wife, Anu, the other day, I said, many times I've told them and my children that I learned my first lessons in leadership from her from the junk family.

Jon - 00:08:55: I mean, there's so many directions that I want to go with this. And I'm imagining in my head that you talked about the signup sheet. I could imagine as a teenager, you're like, it's my turn to have the car. It is my turn. And it really resonates with me too, because as I reflect on, obviously, I am not as experienced as you are, but as our company starts to grow, there's a lot of personalities. Everyone has their own individual one priorities and personalities, and sometimes they clash. In the very beginning, I didn't know how to kind of like deal with it, honestly. But as I started to reflect and I was like thinking about, you know, exactly what you're saying, like sports and just like how to kind of like, you know, manage the relationships even within a family. I can see a ton of resemblance to that. And then, you know, also with sports, too, you know, I played sports growing up as well. And I was like thinking about it. I was like, there's so many like parallels. I didn't know at the time, but like, you know, just like having fun. But I just always see these parallels. And I like I hearken back to, you know, you know, also being on a team. Again, different personalities, different people are like motivated, different positions have different motivations. And the real question is like, how do you get everyone to row the boat in the same direction?

Shekhar - 00:10:18: Same direction.

Jon - 00:10:19: Yeah.

Shekhar - 00:10:20: How to respect, you know, I learned to respect my cousins who are growing up with me. And it's like, okay. They're my cousins. They're not my brothers. But, you know, we had that my older brother would come in to break up some different fight that we had, you know. And it wasn't like taking sides. We were, you know, we were a unit, you know. So I think just eternally learning that from a very young age certainly taught me some lessons and made me, I think, a better external connector and a leader when I got the opportunity to do so.

Jon - 00:11:03: Totally. And like when those tiffs happen, at least for me, it's like sometimes you have to put your personal ego aside. Like we're all on the same team here.

Shekhar - 00:11:15: Exactly.

Jon - 00:11:16: Let's put the personal stuff to the side momentarily and then let's work together.

Shekhar - 00:11:21: If this team wins, all of us are winning individually, right?

Jon - 00:11:24: Yeah.

Shekhar - 00:11:25: Because we are individually contributing to synergize the win, right?

Jon - 00:11:29: Yeah, exactly.

Shekhar - 00:11:30: And we forget that. You know, even to this day, I see all these ventures, you know, and I say, hey, you know, I mean, let's work this together. You know, internally, let's have the debate. And not everyone agrees to everything. But once we are aligned, we are one body, one institution, one business, you know, with a common face to the external world.

Jon - 00:11:53: Absolutely. And now, so you mentioned you played cricket as you went into university. Did you know going in what you wanted to do in university or was it you mentioned it was kind of there were no kind of expectations for what career path? Can you tell us a little bit about your time at IIT?

Shekhar - 00:12:10: Absolutely. You know, what was fascinating to me is. You know, since you bring up IIT, IIT was such a difficult place to get into. There were only five of them at that time, you know. So I must say I was extremely lucky to get in. Most of the people who got in were absolutely brilliant in math. And you see some of the CEOs nowadays, you know, from those IITs, et cetera, that you probably know, I mean, are very successful people in the valley, you know, Silicon Valley area. Very good at math. They were all computer geniuses, engineers, all of that. I was not. I was not very good at math. My brain always worked on visual stuff. I can look at overall visual. In fact, even throughout my career, as I went up the ranks, I wanted my teams or people to present to me visually rather than a lot of words. So my visual of the brain, probably the right brain, I don't know the exact location of the brain, but the right brain, I think it wasn't math analytics driven as much as analytics I had to learn along the way. But the visual part and the intuitive part came to me very, very well. And I got in to do molecular design and structure, understand that at a basic level. And my interest was biologically, millions of molecules have been produced, proteins, small molecules, beneficial, toxic cells. And my training wasn't chemistry initially, but that visual thing with what's happening inside of cells in the mitochondria, in the cellular membrane. That always excited me. So that was my focus going into IIT. I chose IIT. I mean, you know, I happened to get into IIT in Kanpur. And Kanpur had the best. Chemistry department in India and probably one of the top in the world at that time. Very famous professor, Dr. C.N.R. Rao and others. You know, I was very, very lucky to learn from them. But then I focused a little bit on what is called biophysical chemistry. So chemistry that is understood with the help of physical measurements. And in biological settings and cells and cellular structures. That interested me. So that was my training, not in computer engineering. So it was a very interesting thing that I could do. Of course, getting in was tough, but you had to know enough math. But I was not a very, very good mathematician, unlike many of my colleagues who are brilliant. So mine was driven by what I felt comfortable and excited about. What I felt comfortable was these. Structures that appeal to me. And I wanted to study more of that, learn more of that, to find out how things could work in a biological system. And that's how I directed my learnings and my undergraduate and master's thesis at IIT and then coming to Columbia University with a scholarship to do the thing.

Jon - 00:15:42: Did you have an undergraduate at IIT lab experience?

Shekhar - 00:15:45: Of course I did.

Jon - 00:15:47: I'm always curious about these first lab experiences. How did you find that opportunity as an undergraduate?

Shekhar - 00:15:55: Yeah, I mean, fascinating to see chemistry and real changes in color. But then going back to the, you know, what the reaction was, you know, and then looking at physical measurements, you know, all kinds of geometry, electrical circuitry and all of that. Those are all very valuable pieces of my learning at an early age. And a lab, I must say, if I recall my total experience, lots of frustrations too. Things not working, the circuit not working the way I thought it would. And luckily for me, all those lab experiences were also done with, paired up. And I was always lucky. I can still remember my friends, you know, I was always lucky to get somebody who knew what the stuff was all about. So they could, you know, I could learn from them. Because inevitably, if I made a mistake, somebody else would come and correct it. So I would say, you know, that collaboration, learning to respect. My friend who was on my team who was helping me look good as well.

Jon - 00:17:05: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mind this.

Shekhar - 00:17:07: It was so important.

Jon - 00:17:08: Yeah, I don't mind this at all. And so this was a very formative experience for you, it sounds like. And you mentioned you ended up doing work in Columbia. Did you know going in that you were going to eventually pursue a PhD? Or can you talk a little bit about how you thought about the move from India to New York and ultimately going for graduate studies?

Shekhar - 00:17:30: Yes. So I had a number of choices, Princeton, Yale, and Columbia. Some of my professors at IIT who had been at Columbia and were very illustrious students at one time and became professors at IIT, which is a very prestigious position. Two of them actually inspired me to go to the city, New York City. And they said, you grew up in Kolkata, Kolkata it's called. And, you know, you will get bored going to a smaller place. And Columbia offers you a lot more of the external world of professors visiting, New York being so tempting to be in a big city, learning from there. So I ended up at Columbia. I had a fellowship to do the master's. But I knew that if I did well enough, I would be admitted to PhD program. And that was my intent. I really wanted to do state-of-the-art research, you know, state-of-the-art at that time. And I wanted to also have a continuation of my interest, which was to learn through physical techniques and physics and apply it to chemistry and biology or sets or cellular interactions. That was state-of-the-art at that time. And genetic engineering was also coming together by 1977 when I arrived in New York. You know, 77 to 81 was my four years in Columbia. And I, you know, the master's first nine months and then the PhD went very fast. Thanks to my good training back at IIT. You know, I could get through the master's nine months, get a fellowship to continue my PhD. And within three and a half years, I got my PhD.

Jon - 00:19:20: Oh, wow.

Shekhar - 00:19:21: Yeah. So the total four years, 77 to 81, since I arrived and then got my PhD, really, really went very fast. Too fast, in fact. Perhaps I should have spent two more years there.

Jon - 00:19:34: I was going to say, well, one, the first thing that comes to mind is like, IIT must have trained you like no others. Like, you come in, like, this is a breeze. This is a breeze. And I have a more personal question. How was your experience in New York?

Shekhar - 00:19:50: Yeah, that was... I would say. Awesome, but at the same time, shocking. Because the first time I came in, First of all, you have to realize it came from a very warm-hearted environment, grew up there, right? Then I went to IIT, which was four years of, you know, bare essential food, lots of sports, but lots of hard work, really grueling work to be competitive in that environment. The best of the best in India, when they got an opportunity, extremely competitive environment. You know, that prepared me to be stepping into competition with the best minds that Columbia chose. But New York was like nothing that I had ever imagined. From time to time, it felt like it was hostile. You know, safety was an issue. Then my language barrier, right? I knew English, but not, couldn't explain. Even yogurt was not yogurt. To me, it was curd. You know, things like that. And then living off a very small fellowship, you know, stipend. Restricted what I could achieve, right? I mean, what I could eat or what I could do, you know? I still remember living in Columbia, met a number of students from the Barnard College, as well as Columbia College, as well as, you know, the School of Music there, which is fantastic. The Juilliard School of Music, and all of that, and then getting to love Western classical music. You know, I grew up with a little bit of my mom, you know, getting me involved in listening to music, mostly Indian classical, but I got exposure to Western classical, which is amazing. Going into standing room tickets, so that's all we could afford for five, seven dollars. Standing room at some operas that I didn't know the language, didn't understand Italian, you know, but there were all these cats saying, English. We had standing room tickets. And then we found out very soon that the very rich, well-to-do families or friends and family, they came in downstairs in seats, regular seats, paid hundreds of dollars at that time in 78, 79. And we were in $7 seats. And then they went away after the first aria. And so we could be seated in the front.

Jon - 00:22:24: That's amazing.

Shekhar - 00:22:26: It was like mind-boggling.

Jon - 00:22:28: That's amazing. Especially the grad student. You're just like, huh?

Shekhar - 00:22:33: Absolutely. And I didn't have the guts by myself. I had to be with my friends who said, it's fine. We asked, come on, sit down here. But in the first floor, not the third floor, standing room, right? So it was like, wow. It was an amazing experience. 78 was the hardest winter ever. I had not seen snow like that. Like two feet of snow. All the buses, including postal services, were shut down. Columbia was shut down. 77, 78. If you do the research, one of the worst snows in the city, right? We walked all the way, barely clean. We walked with our gumboots, walked from Columbia Campus, 116th Street on Broadway, all the way to Battery Park. That was a thrill. And we had 75-cent pizzas along the way.

Jon - 00:23:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? That's amazing.

Shekhar - 00:23:28: So exploring the world in a different way was like a high-opening experience. And then coming back from the lab at night during one of those nights, you know, working till late at 1:30 in the morning the next day, coming back, we were running some experiments, you know, being mugged by somebody. And I didn't have enough money, so they beat me up on my face and said, next time, keep more money in your pocket.

Jon - 00:23:56: God, no way.

Shekhar - 00:23:58: Yeah. I mean, it was driving me.

Jon - 00:23:59: I'm a grad student. Yeah, sure.

Shekhar - 00:24:02: You know? So I had like 30 or 40 cents, you know, and gave the guy because I didn't want to, you know, have a brawl with them. I wouldn't win. But he was very angry that I had only 40 cents, not $4 or $5, you know? So that kind of experience, you know, I mean, it was, okay, now I, you know, I'm street smart.

Jon - 00:24:25: I would like the way I'm like envisioning this in my head. It's like you're getting dropped into the deep end, like immediately in the best and the worst of ways to like no one. No one wants that experience. But it's like it's kind of like you got the school of hard knocks really quickly.

Shekhar - 00:24:42: Yeah. But, you know, what's interesting, my desire to go out. Even in late nights, to enjoy a show or a jazz concert in the park. My desire to go and finish an experiment and be there in the lab at two and coming back to my apartment, which I shared with three other people, that did not at all go down. So I was very cautious. I was shit smart. I was watching every phase. You know, when I was walking or going on the subway, but the desire to get my stuff done that made me feel passionate about, either whether it was work in the lab or whether it was going to some kind of show in the park, free concert in the park. That did not at all go down.

Jon - 00:25:37: That's amazing. I mean, I love that you really captured and took the opportunity to soak up New York. It sounds like to the fullest. From, you know, the arts, the culture, the music, and not letting the bad be too overly daunting and stopping you from enjoying everything that New York has to offer. And it seems like it just probably energized you to while you're like in your normal lab, kind of like work. And it kept you going. 

Shekhar - 00:26:10: Absolutely. Because that kind of lab research that I was doing at the forefront was very, very challenging and frustrating. Most of the experiments failed and failed. So what you do is you learn something and you go and have a different hypothesis and try another route to get to what you are trying to understand in the very intricate cellular systems that I was studying. But the interesting thing is now I reflect back and I say, I'm going to New York for next two weeks, starting Thursday of next week. And I'm saying, now I live in luxury in the real world. Right? My wife and I go to the best of shows, Broadway shows and all of that. And I still cannot forget those days when I had equal amount of fun.

Jon - 00:27:04: Yep. 

Shekhar - 00:27:05: Living that kind of life. So my lesson is, hey, younger generation, you know, it's like candle light, right? You really appreciate the light from the candle. But if you look at the bottom of the candle and towards the bottom of where the candle is on your table, you don't see much light. You see the light elsewhere. So, you know, by comparison. That was not bad. It was, you had to experience that kind of, have that kind of experience in New York with very little money, very little resources, but sheer passion to learn and to witness new things. Versus now I do it, of course I can afford a lot more luxury. And I still do it. And I enjoy it in a different way. But not to forget. I did in the past.

Jon - 00:28:00: Absolutely. It reminds me of the early days for Excedr. When I founded the company, it was a similar situation where We had a shoestring budget, just like, and we had to make it work. Like we had to make it work. But when I reflect back on it. I had plenty of fun, like plenty of fun, despite the shoestring budget. And exactly what you're describing, I think, is so important to just like highlight because. It's important to just like, if you can have fun and find satisfaction in the work that you're doing and the play that you're having on very little. Everything after that. It's gravy. It's the cherry on top. I think you can get into a vicious cycle if you're always just like, you're never satisfied. And if you're already satisfied on the shoestring budget, then you're just pleasant. It's like, you're pleasantly surprised. 

Shekhar - 00:28:57: You know, I love your observation and your comment. I think this is very important for some of the ventures and the younger generation of people I'm associating with, including my own children. A lot of wisdom that you showed just by summarizing it in that fashion. Absolutely true. 

Jon - 00:29:17: And I will say it's not easy to feel that way. It's not easy, but it's always worth reminding yourself. Like I was having a blast when I had no money. So after this, it's going to be great to get out from here. And so to touch back on your research at Columbia, you mentioned that like, you know, it was grueling work, but it was like invigorating work. Can you talk a little about the research at Columbia, the lab that you were in and kind of that experience? I know, you know, you got it done in three years, which is amazing. But, you know, tell us about that experience. 

Shekhar - 00:29:49: I got very lucky, I'll have to tell you this. But the very interesting thing is... You know, I was fascinated by... Physical measurements that could shed light on workings of cellular networks. At that time, pioneering work was going on. On what something everyone knows about called magnetic resonance. Now it's called MRI, right? You do imaging of your brain. We were doing, we're taking live rats and putting them in a little test tube inside of a big magnet and studying their brain. How what was going on in the metabolism that way. That was the advent of research at that time. In the 70s, okay? And a number of people at Columbia were pioneers in that. But most interestingly, my mentor and professor who guided me on this research was a physicist who studied lasers and atomic reactions with lasers and magnetic resonance. I was the first graduate student. And he always had, I go back a little, he always wanted to get into using physical measurements on very complex biological systems. I was his first graduate student who was willing to take the risk. To use his knowledge and the lab's knowledge, lots of postdoctoral fellows and other graduate students who knew how to use lasers, how to use magnetic lasers. I was a first-grader student who said, I volunteer. Will you take me as your first-grader student to study biological proteins in cells? Because proteins have very, very intricate structures. Right? The amino acid chains, right? And they fold in a certain way and they conduct. Enzymatic reactions in cells that is keeping us living and talking. Right. So. He said, you know what? There is a bacteria called Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and his name is Professor Burson. He became a National Academy of Sciences member, one of the top things in the whole world. He should have gotten the Nobel Prize, but, you know, he was not a wheeler-dealer, not one of those, you know, PR kind of person, you know, didn't believe in that, very, very thoughtful and behind the scenes. But anyway, the National Academy recognized him and gave him that honor, and he's passed away now. But I have fond memories of working with him and learning from him. And he told me Pseudomonas aeruginosa is a bacteria that, you know, it's quite a dangerous bacteria. And he said, you know, there is a protein molecule there called azurin, A-Z-U-R-I-N. Azurin, he always wanted to study that protein molecule. Why? Azurin actually was instrumental in transporting oxygen. Into other proteins to provide energy for that bacteria to live. It's an essential element, right? Without energy, none of us, no cells live. And it was interesting that azurin protein is blue in color. It had zinc and copper in its folded structure, and it took oxygen, bound oxygen, and transferred oxygen as the bacteria were breathing into other chain reactions that created energy from the bacteria. So he wanted to study that, but he didn't have any idea on how to isolate, out of thousands of proteins in a bacterial cell, how to isolate that blue protein. Because if you don't isolate that, how are you going to shine laser light on it? Or how are you going to put it in the magnetic resonance machine to study it? Right? At that time, machines are not sophisticated to study one molecule in a cell that is like an MRI. It was the early, early, early stage, first generation of machines. So you have to identify and isolate that in pure form. So I undertook the challenge to do that. And not only could I, after lots of failures over a period of nine months, I could isolate azurin, the blue protein, which he could see. That was exhilarating to see the blue protein after many, many, many, many steps. Done at late hours, wee hours in the morning, you know, to isolate that. And then isolated a number of other proteins on the chain called cytochrome oxidases, which are very well known. Potassium was the first, one of the first proteins in that chain. He asked me to see if I could isolate that. I isolated that and all the cytokine oxidases, the other proteins. And that was like the breakthrough that happened at that time. You know, we could isolate that azurin, put it in MRI, and look at exactly what conformational three-dimensional structural changes are happening without oxygen and with oxygen. That gave us detailed information on how certain amino acids at the cavity center, where there was copper and, you know, copper, which was binding oxygen. We could see exactly through MRI machine, through the magnetic resonance machine, how those amino acids were opening and folding, opening and folding as oxygen.

Jon - 00:35:49:That's so cool.

Shekhar - 00:35:51: So cool. So cool. At that time, it was like, wow, you know, because in x-ray, if you do x-ray crystallography, you can get a frigid picture

Jon - 00:36:04: Yep. 

Shekhar - 00:36:05: But to see it breathing.

Jon - 00:36:06: Yeah. 

Shekhar - 00:36:07: Moving. Giving oxygen to azurin in a test tube inside of a magnetic resonance machine and seeing the unfolding and the folding of that cavity where the oxygen was going and binding to the copper. And releasing it.

Jon - 00:36:23: So crazy. 

Shekhar - 00:36:23: So crazy, right?

Jon - 00:36:24: So crazy.

Shekhar - 00:36:25: Right? 46 years back.

Jon - 00:36:27: Holy moly.

Shekhar - 00:36:28: Or 45 years back. So that was geminal research, which has been published in the Journal of Biochemistry, very prestigious journals. But that led me to do some... Very, very interesting fundamental work. The cytochrome proteins... Why was I, I mean, I felt good. I had some of the best graduate student friends who joined as a result of what I was doing at Columbia University, you know, because the graduate students, 18 or 20 that were picked, okay, could go anywhere to any professor to work. And there were a number of Nobel laureates on that. On that thing. And instead of going to some noble laureate, they came to this lab, Professor Bersohn's lab, to study cytochrome functioning the same way. So my... Investigation and isolation of these proteins in pure form, not only azurin, which is my baby to study, cytochromes along the way that I could do as a result of this, that fed many other friends of mine to give them the inspiration to study those. You know, some of my colleagues, Alan Corrin and Patricia. I mean, all of them have become either professors or top-notch venture people, CEOs and studios. So I think we had the most exciting time, you know, as a result of Professor Barson's interest in taking physical measurements down to the molecular level to understand intricate biological systems. That was what I was very fortunate to learn and contribute.

Jon - 00:38:08: That's amazing. And I always, whenever I hear these stories and I like think about it, it's almost like there's an element of like serendipity that kind of. You happen to be the first one and your PI is like, this is a cool problem. I don't have the solution for it, but I think it's cool. Are you up to the task of tackling this? And you probably didn't. 

Shekhar - 00:38:29: Up to the task, you know, and I think I look back and I say, it was my first major risk-taking, right? I was on a scholarship. So if I continue to fail as I was for the first nine months to isolate the protein, I'd have to change my research course, you know, the direction and go somewhere else or some other molecule in his lab to do something else, physical measurements. And then I would, you know, after six or seven years, a lot of people lost their scholarship to do it. And, you know, certainly my parents would not be able to afford that, you know, to keep me in New York to do it. The rest but in the end. It paid off. I learned stuff. I was excited. I'm passionate. Even to this day, you know, at P&G, I direct a lot of groups to do fundamental understanding. But with the idea of applying to big brands, you know, creating new brands, and we can talk about that. And then to this day, I like to say, hey. If you are not willing to fail, a few times. Then you're doing nothing that's substantial. So taking that risk is very important. Failing is not fun. But if you don't fail a few times, how do you hit upon something bigger, something more meaningful? So I think that taught me the early lessons. Hey, don't be afraid to take some risks. And I've done it along the way. Of course, when you have family and this and that, you know, you take calculated risks also. You know, you've got to be mindful of that. But every time I took some risks and I took on some heavy challenges, you know. I seem to be getting luckier many more times than fate. So it's been a good lesson for me.

Jon - 00:40:27: Absolutely. And the thing that really stands out to me too, and there's two things that stand out to me. It's, you're absolutely right. Failure is not fun. And we can't pretend to be fun, but it's how you learn, frankly. And I think I love your philosophy on risk-taking. Obviously, be smart about it. Don't be reckless. Don't be taking reckless risk. But I think exactly what you said. If you don't put on enough risk, you're only going to get incremental returns. Just incremental. You know, if you're really trying to make a dent in the universe, you got to amp up the risk a little bit. But it doesn't feel good. It's an uncomfortable position to be in.

Shekhar - 00:41:11: Because you are living in that world of uncertainty. Uncertainty to any one of us humans. Not that great. Right? And when your uncertainty can lead to either social and or economic pressures, it's even worse. Right. But what I've observed is that If you're smart about the risk-taking, it gives you an alternate path that lets you get into something completely different. Which may actually benefit me even bigger, okay? And if you can cut down on, don't treat it as your baby and continue to, you know you've taken the risk, it's leading you down the wrong pathway. Yet you are so hard-headed that you keep on embracing your idea and not seeking input from others, not getting out of it at the right time. That is also terrible, don't do that.

Jon - 00:42:13: Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of back to your, your upbringing. It's like, put the ego aside for a moment, put the ego aside. It's like, okay, I could be wrong here. Like this, this path that I'm going down, I could definitely be wrong. And it's okay to be wrong. It's much better to get off the wrong path or maybe even a U-turn. That's okay. You might, you don't want to just keep going down the wrong road.

Outro - 00:42:38: That's all for this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. We hope you enjoyed our discussion with Shekhar Mitra. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a review and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening. And we look forward to having you join us again for part two of our conversation with Shekhar. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.